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Author Topic:   Bible and Plagiarism
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 51 (714755)
12-27-2013 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PlanManStan
12-25-2013 9:18 PM


Easter and the Pentecost; Passover and Shavuot.
Of course it is not plagiarism but yes, any religion that tries to suppress parties is very likely to fail. Had Jesus first miracle been turning wine into water it's unlikely anyone today would even have heard of him.
Let me give you a few other examples from the Judaic tradition.
Easter and Pentecost. On Easter Day we celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus and on Pentecost the arrival of the Holy Spirit. As a Jew, Jesus would have celebrated Passover and Shavuot at the same times.
But what are Passover and Shavuot?
Jesus had made his annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover. Passover is one of the three Pilgrimage Feasts mandated in the Torah. The other two mandated Pilgrimages are Shavuot and Sukkoth.
Most of us grew up learning the stories of Exodus, how the Israelites were warned to stay inside their homes and to paint the door frame with blood so the Angel of the Lord would pass over their homes as he killed the first born son of the Egyptians.
Shavuot is likely less familiar, but like the other two Pilgrimage Festivals, is related to the Exodus story. It celebrates the day that Moses was given the Torah on the Mountain of Sinai, and the day that the Jews accepted God’s Law, became a Nation of God.
Like Easter, it is a movable feast and falls seven, seven day weeks after the Second Day of Passover. It is called The Feast of Counting as the Jews anticipate the days, count the days, from Passover to the day of acceptance.
But how did the exact time of celebration come about?
No one actually knows when the Passover happened, or when exactly Moses received the Torah, so why do we celebrate Passover, Shavuot, Easter and Pentecost at these particular times of year?
Historically, Passover was celebrated with the first offerings of Barley. Wheat ripened slightly later and Shavuot was also the first offering from the Wheat harvest. The timing for these Pilgrimages corresponded to bringing the first of the harvests to the Temple, as offerings and for blessings.
The Third Mandatory Pilgrimage is Sukkoth. It too is related to the Exodus and when I was growing up, one of the most fun celebrations.
I grew up in an almost all Jewish neighborhood, so all my friends were Jewish. I was the Shabbat Goy, the Christian boy the orthodox Jews could call on to do things on Shabbat, turn on lights, turn on or off the stove, run errands.
One advantage though was getting to celebrate Sukkoth with my friends. Sukkoth commemorates living in the desert while on the Exodus march. All the kids get to make tents from tables and we got to sleep in them and have our meals on the floor and eat with our hands and get dirty and all the things we couldn’t do at other times.
But even Sukkoth is timed with the harvest. One of the traditions of Sukkoth is shaking the Four Species. The Four Species are Date Palm Fronds, Willow Branches, Myrtle and Citron, a fruit like lemons. As folk living here in the Valley know, citrus fruits are a Fall Harvest.
To celebrate, you take the Date Palm Frond, some Myrtle and the Willow in the left hand, and hold the Citron in your right. As you bring the two hands together, they are blessed. You then shake them three times to each of the four corners, to North, East, South and West.
The ceremony is a prayer of thanks for the year’s bounty and that there be rain enough for all the coming years’ growth.
Beyond the symbolic meanings of the Exodus in Passover, Shavuot and Sukkoth, beyond the symbolic meanings of Easter and the Pentecost, there was life, and an acknowledgement of the cycles of life and the harvest.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PlanManStan, posted 12-25-2013 9:18 PM PlanManStan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by PlanManStan, posted 12-27-2013 9:08 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 51 (715380)
01-04-2014 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Raphael
01-04-2014 7:24 PM


Re: What is faith?
Not quite.
A historical character named Jesus claims TO BE the YHWH of the Jewish Torah? He not only claims to be that same GOD, but outlines a narrative that goes beyond this life? He prophesies his own death and "resurrection" before it happens?
That's not quite true.
People wrote stories where they created a character called Jesus and assert that Jesus was a historical person.
In the stories (all written long after the actual character would have been dead if he did exist) some of the writers claim that he predicts his own death and resurrection.
We can look at the stories and see whether they resemble actual history or mythology. Agood example is looking at the "Great Commission". It is common to most of the Gospels but what we find there is the typical evolution of a story that we find in fables and mythos.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Raphael, posted 01-04-2014 7:24 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Raphael, posted 01-04-2014 8:27 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 21 of 51 (715382)
01-04-2014 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Raphael
01-04-2014 8:27 PM


What is important?
Sure. Most of that's fair. I stated that Jesus is a historical character, assuming it was true, begging my own question. I apologize. But that is not essential to my argument my friend.
The writers of the New Testament wrote about the character Jesus (after his death) in the same way that your friends would write about you after your death. Do they need sources? Peer reviews? confirmation? Not really, they're just writing about what you did so we can know who you were what you were about. How would anyone prove you existed in a couple thousand years when all we have are some preserved pieces of a Word document talking about the stuff you did, and how you impacted people?
But regardless of whether or not Jesus is proven to be a historical character actually doesn't matter, because the claims he makes and questions he asks do not require that you have proof. What it really comes down to is the Bible makes claims, asking the reader to trust its validity based on personal experience. You can go any which way with intellectualism and evidence, but Christ does not ask you to check his sources before belief, merely believe. He lives to ask the question: What will you do with me and my claims?
Well, yes, anything written about me, particularly 30 or more years after my death would definitely need not just peer review but also some form of additional external evidence.
The big issue I have is that the what you have listed as important claims are pretty much irrelevant and unimportant when you look at what Jesus (if Jesus existed) did; I find it is a perversion and cheapening way of marketing Christianity. Of course they are an easy sell.
Throw the claims away. Who cares if Jesus is God? Who cares if Jesus was resurrected? Who cares if Jesus ascended?
Are they important to Jesus message?
Go back to the topic. Claims like those have been around for thousands and thousands of years before there was a Bible. Claims like that were a dime a dozen and contrary to what Paul was supposed to have said, not even very unusual or unique.
Throw all those claims away, treat them as anathema.
Instead ask if there is a valuable message to be found.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Raphael, posted 01-04-2014 8:27 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Raphael, posted 01-04-2014 9:37 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 51 (715387)
01-04-2014 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Raphael
01-04-2014 9:37 PM


Re: What is faith?
Well, you posted your beliefs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Raphael, posted 01-04-2014 9:37 PM Raphael has not replied

  
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