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Author Topic:   Do oceans of water in mantle rock prove the flood?
Adminnemooseus
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Message 76 of 108 (729785)
06-19-2014 3:48 AM


In 10 minures - Topic temporarily closing (again) for further housekeeping
I somehow missed reviewing 30(!) messages.

Closing in 10 minutes.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that.

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3740
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 77 of 108 (729786)
06-19-2014 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Adminnemooseus
06-19-2014 3:48 AM


Never closed again - But housekeeping done as best I can
I off-topic bannered more messages of the message 31-60 page (page 2 for my set up).

I was finding that quite a few messages there were really getting into the on-topic/off-topic fuzzy zone.

I will make further comment in a separate message, probable from the Minnemooseus mode.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-19-2014 3:48 AM Adminnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

    
Minnemooseus
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From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
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Member Rating: 4.0


Message 78 of 108 (729787)
06-19-2014 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
06-19-2014 3:35 AM


From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
Faith writes:

No. Scripture implies a natural source for the water, not a miraculous source.

At the moment, I don't care where the water came from, I'm asking you whether the fact that god flooded the world to a level higher than the highest mountain was a miracle or not.

As I see it, "where the water came from" is an essential of this topics theme. The question is, IF the world was flooded per the Biblical description (apparently covering the highest mountain), might the Earths mantle have been the major water source?

That breaks down into two parts:

1) Is the water there? Yes, mostly in the form of OH in a minerals structure (which brings up the additional side question, where is that extra H?).

2) Is there a natural way to get that water to the surface, especially in "The Flood" time-frame? No. I would say that such would require a major miracle. As such, the mantle would be "a miraculous source".

If it is not to be said "miraculous source", then Faith needs to come up with a non-miraculous mechanism.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
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Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 79 of 108 (729789)
06-19-2014 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Minnemooseus
06-19-2014 4:54 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
2) Is there a natural way to get that water to the surface, especially in "The Flood" time-frame? No. I would say that such would require a major miracle. As such, the mantle would be "a miraculous source".

If it is not to be said "miraculous source", then Faith needs to come up with a non-miraculous mechanism.

But I've said I'm not interested in getting the water to the surface since I have adequate explanations for how that could have happened in the Flood without the ringwoodite, I'm interested in whether the water held in the ringwoodite represents "where the water went" after the Flood. And to be clear, I'm also not terribly interested in this question either, since I think creationists have had sufficient answers to this one too, I'm simply pursuing it as an interesting alternative explanation.

And to this point the clearest answer I've received is Dr. A's flat "No" which he doesn't bother to explain.

One creationist explanation is that the sea floor dropped during the Flood, perhaps because of the emptying of the "fountains of the deep" which were part of its inauguration, which would have to be quite a drop to accommodate all the Flood water. Doesn't take us to the depth of the ringwoodite, though, but that's under the continent anyway isn't it?

To me it's still an interesting question what was the source of these "oceans" of water, also called a "reservoir" which you must admit is pretty watery terminology despite this water's being locked into this mineral called ringwoodite. The formation of olivine I get, but when "water" is added to it under great heat and pressure to create ringwoodite I have to picture, in fact, water, the wet stuff, H20 you know, and the fact that there had to be "oceans" of it to combine with the olivine to produce this mineral in the quantities described just raises all kinds of natural questions for a creationist, which I would think a fair evo might just gracefully recognize for a change.

And my answer to Tangle's off-topic question is the same one I already gave for the reason I already gave: No.

ABE: OH, AND THANK YOU FOR POLICING THIS THREAD.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : change "course" to "source"


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2014 8:47 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 101 by Porosity, posted 06-19-2014 7:11 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
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Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 80 of 108 (729790)
06-19-2014 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2014 2:39 AM


Flow

Of the mantle.

Due to the water content of the ringwoodite. Suggests an actual liquid wateriness.

solubility

Of hydroxide in ringwoodite.

Suggests an actual liquid wateriness that can occur.

All I want to know is whether the enormous quantity of water contained in the ringwoodite was possibly ever actual water in such a quantity

No. There was never that amount of liquid water just sloshing about in bulk. If I have correctly understood your question, that is the answer.

Uh huh, well "No" is nice and clear as far as it goes, but I wonder if you might be so kind as to explain how you arrived at this conclusion that it could not ever have been actual water that combined with the olivine under such enormous heat and pressure to make the ringwoodite in the quantities now found, which seems to retain some ability to become liquiddy under some circumstances, which implies that it is indeed a sort of watery thing that had a watery source and if there is oceans' worth of this watery stuff it just still remains a question how all that water got there in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2014 2:39 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by JonF, posted 06-19-2014 7:57 AM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15482
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 81 of 108 (729791)
06-19-2014 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
06-19-2014 5:24 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
I'm interested in whether the water held in the ringwoodite represents "where the water went" after the Flood. [...] And to this point the clearest answer I've received is Dr. A's flat "No" which he doesn't bother to explain.

See posts #35 and #39, especially the latter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 5:24 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 5:58 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 82 of 108 (729792)
06-19-2014 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2014 5:47 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
Neither answered the question before and they don't answer it now either. In 35 you are emphasizing the fact that the water is not in water form, and yet my sources recently quoted do suggest that it does have or can revert to a watery form under certain circumstances. I get your point about the pressure too but what about the situation where there is space for the water to flow into at that depth? What happens to the water then?

ABE: Say the dropping of the sea floor. It wouldn't create space of course, the water would just drop with it.

ABE: HERE"S ANOTHER STAB AT THE QUESTION I KEEP TRYING TO GET ASKED:

To form ringwoodite from olivine DOES REQUIRE WATER, does it not? I mean it is formed FROM water. So there had to be that much water available to form that much ringwoodite from the olivine. The question is how it came to be that there was that much water at that depth?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2014 5:47 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 85 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2014 6:48 AM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
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Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 83 of 108 (729795)
06-19-2014 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
06-19-2014 5:58 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
Neither answered the question before and they don't answer it now either. In 35 you are emphasizing the fact that the water is not in water form, and yet my sources recently quoted do suggest that it does have or can revert to a watery form under certain circumstances. I get your point about the pressure too but what about the situation where there is space for the water to flow into at that depth? What happens to the water then?

You mean, if there was a 400 mile deep hole in the ground? Then if you threw water down it, it would boil on the way down and come back up as steam. Also I suspect the hole would immediately turn into a volcano or otherwise close itself up. (What would happen if there was a mile deep hole in the sea?)

It's hard to do things against pressure. The tires of your car, for example, have a pressure of about 250 KPa, two and a half times atmospheric pressure. So you can't just open the valve of the tire and wait for air from outside to flow in, because it won't. That's thermodynamics for you. Instead, you need a machine that pumps air in by artificially creating a higher pressure outside than inside. The machine needs a power source. This is not the sort of thing that happens by itself.


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 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 5:58 AM Faith has responded

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Faith
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Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 84 of 108 (729796)
06-19-2014 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2014 6:31 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
Sorry, I added a couple of edits apparently after you copied out the post. Please see if they change anything in your answer. Thanks.
This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
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Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 85 of 108 (729797)
06-19-2014 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
06-19-2014 5:58 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
To form ringwoodite from olivine DOES REQUIRE WATER, does it not? I mean it is formed FROM water. So there had to be that much water available to form that much ringwoodite from the olivine. The question is how it came to be that there was that much water at that depth?

Well, a creationist answer might be that God magicked it there when he magicked the rest of the Earth into being.

For a non-creationist answer, see post #41. The Earth, astronomers say, accreted. We know that there's plenty of ice in the solar system, e.g. comets. So chunks of ice would have got squidged into the mix.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 5:58 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 7:01 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 86 of 108 (729798)
06-19-2014 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2014 6:48 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
I object to your characterization of creationist explanations as "magicking" anything, which is something you love to do. I think you should get a moderator's slap on the wrist -- or better across the jowls -- for that. In discussing the mechanisms of the Flood there is never any reason to invoke anything supernatural or miraculous and I never do.

As for your supposed answer, post 41 is just some kind of joke so I didn't pay much attention to it. However, apparently you meant this much seriously:

We know there's lots of ice whizzing round the Solar System, so we know (or rather, I know and you don't) that this must have been part of the material that accreted to form the Earth.

Whatever is whizzing around the Solar System could just as well have been the product of the Flood as whatever happened on earth. Ice would have been formed on the earth after the Flood, not before.

ABE: Perhaps it would be clearer to say it was the product of the whole scenario of which the Flood was the major event on Earth.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 85 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2014 6:48 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 06-19-2014 7:13 AM Faith has responded
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NoNukes
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From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 87 of 108 (729799)
06-19-2014 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
06-19-2014 7:01 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
I object to your characterization of creationist explanations as "magicking" anything, which is something you love to do.

You can object all you want. There is nothing off topic or inappropriate about doing so.

And speaking of unscientific stupidity, I hope you'll think through your new thread proposal a bit before it gets promoted. Do you know where rain water comes from?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 7:01 AM Faith has responded

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Faith
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Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 88 of 108 (729800)
06-19-2014 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by NoNukes
06-19-2014 7:13 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
If Moose will give you a punch in the chops for that I'll gladly take one for responding to it.

It's not off topic, it's just false, devious and mean.

As for where rain comes from, why don't all you know-it-alls at least acknowledge the one basic fact of the creationist position which is that THINGS WERE DIFFERENT BACK THEN. The Biblical position is that there had been no rain at all prior to that forty days and forty nights, that the water was suspended in the "firmament" overhead and the earth was watered by a "mist." Rain as we know it was only possible after the Flood when the familiar cycles were established.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by JonF, posted 06-19-2014 8:00 AM Faith has responded
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JonF
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(1)
Message 89 of 108 (729801)
06-19-2014 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
06-19-2014 5:40 AM


Flow

Of the mantle.


Due to the water content of the ringwoodite. Suggests an actual liquid wateriness.

Will you never learn that making stuff up never works for you? The mantle material flows because rock is "plastic" (in the sense of "deformable without breaking") under the high pressure and temperature in the mantle. The ringwoodite and any of its content has nothing to do with it.

solubility

Of hydroxide in ringwoodite.

Suggests an actual liquid wateriness that can occur.

No it doesn't. That's crazy even for you. From Wikipedia:

quote:
Solubility is the property of a solid, liquid, or gaseous chemical substance called solute to dissolve in a solid, liquid, or gaseous solvent to form a homogeneous solution of the solute in the solvent. ...

Solubility is not to be confused with the ability to dissolve or liquefy a substance, because the solution might occur not only because of dissolution but also because of a chemical reaction.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 5:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3485
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 90 of 108 (729802)
06-19-2014 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
06-19-2014 7:25 AM


Re: From the "on/off-topic fuzzy" zone
The Biblical position is that there had been no rain at all prior to that forty days and forty nights, that the water was suspended in the "firmament" overhead and the earth was watered by a "mist."

Even most YECs gave up on that one long ago. It just can't work. No matter where you put the water up above or in the atmosphere, getting it to the ground al liquid water involves releasing so much heat that the only survivors would be a few thermophilic bacteria.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 7:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 8:02 AM JonF has responded

  
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