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Author Topic:   Galileo Was Wrong, Okay?
JonF
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Posts: 3483
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 16 of 54 (761320)
06-30-2015 2:28 PM


Some good references on this silliness:

Dealing with Creationism in Astronomy: Biblical Geocentrism
Geocentrism Debunked

I've had quite a few conversations with geocentrists, and not a one has been able to do any of the math. They are great at saying "according to relativity, X must be true"; but when someone else or I do that math it turns out that X is false. This has been especially true when discussing the role of relativity in GPS. Alas, most of it is gone with the Theology Web crash. But I remember most of it.

Especially I remember Bob Bennet's alleged answer to the issue of "Ether Wind" in relation to the Foucalt pendulum and the fact that rockets launched towards the East get a speed boost. He said there were two ether winds; one electromagnetic blowing wets to east and one inertial blowing west-east. The inertial wind accounts for the rocket, the electromagnetic wind accounts for the pendulum by differences in the wind force between when the pendulum is at the north half of its swing and when it's at the south half of its swing (what happens when the pendulum is swinging in the east-west plane?). (Some geocentrists think that the electromagnet used to keep a Foucalt pendulum swinging is an integral part of the apparatus.) Obviously those are very select winds. It's hard to believe that someone with an earned PhD in physics could actually say something so stupid, but it was secondhand.

Some especially interesting takedowns of geocentrists other than GPS are:

Geocentrism: Flunking the Lagrange Point Challenge
Sungenis Followers Double Down

I'd love to have a substantive discussion with someone, but it's pretty unlikely that's going to happen here.


  
JonF
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Posts: 3483
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 17 of 54 (761322)
06-30-2015 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Suzanne Romano
06-30-2015 2:18 PM


Re: SYNOPSIS SCENE II
None of your synopses contain any evidence. This is an evidence-based forum; whether or not you can post your synopses is up to others, but everyone is going to expect you to defend the claims you are making with evidence, and that means doing the math.

If you are not going to defend your claims with calculations, you are wasting everyone's time.


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Replies to this message:
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Suzanne Romano
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 58
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 18 of 54 (761329)
06-30-2015 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
06-30-2015 1:03 PM


PaulK:

quote:
There's a big problem with that argument. Only inertial reference frames are equivalent. You can't treat an accelerating reference frame in the same way.

"Accelerating reference frame" is a presupposition, and not a fact.

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PaulK
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Posts: 12432
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 19 of 54 (761330)
06-30-2015 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Suzanne Romano
06-30-2015 3:06 PM


quote:

"Accelerating reference frame" is a presupposition, and not a fact.

So you reject Newtonian mechanics too ? You think that circular motion is possible without acceleration ?


This message is a reply to:
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Suzanne Romano
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 58
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 20 of 54 (761341)
06-30-2015 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by PaulK
06-30-2015 3:09 PM


I did address Newtonian mechanics in my synopses, but I am not allowed to post them here.

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Suzanne Romano
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 58
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 21 of 54 (761343)
06-30-2015 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by JonF
06-30-2015 2:31 PM


Re: SYNOPSIS SCENE II
JonF:

quote:
None of your synopses contain any evidence.

Of course they do, but I was cut off at the knees before I could post the evidence. I have only been able to post introductory analysis thus far.

My request for permission to post my own work product has been ignored.

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PaulK
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Message 22 of 54 (761344)
06-30-2015 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Suzanne Romano
06-30-2015 3:29 PM


You didn't answer the question. Do you reject Newtonian mechanics ? Do you maintain that the Earth can orbit the sun without accelerating ?
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Suzanne Romano
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 58
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 23 of 54 (761345)
06-30-2015 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by PaulK
06-30-2015 3:09 PM


PaulK:

quote:
You think that circular motion is possible without acceleration ?

My research thus far indicates that the idea of circular orbits for the Sun and the Earth in the copernican model have been ruled out. Stellar aberration in stars close to the north pole appear from Earth to be making little circles, but that is all I am aware of.

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Suzanne Romano
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 58
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 24 of 54 (761346)
06-30-2015 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by PaulK
06-30-2015 3:32 PM


PaulK:

quote:
Do you maintain that the Earth can orbit the sun without accelerating ?

I maintain that the Earth is not moving, and therefore not accelerating.

I request permission to post my work product that deals with Newtonian mechanics.

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PaulK
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Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 25 of 54 (761347)
06-30-2015 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Suzanne Romano
06-30-2015 3:35 PM


quote:

My research thus far indicates that the idea of circular orbits for the Sun and the Earth in the copernican model have been ruled out.

Well you see that isn't the issue.

The issue is whether relativity undermines itself by making a stationary Earth equivalent to an orbiting Earth, as you claimed. It does not. And the reason is that an orbiting Earth is accelerating, and therefore a frame of reference that takes the Earth as stationary cannot be equivalent because of that acceleration.


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Dr Adequate
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Joined: 07-20-2006
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(2)
Message 26 of 54 (761349)
06-30-2015 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Suzanne Romano
06-30-2015 12:45 PM


Re: RICKER REVIEW CONT:
The thesis of the film is that the most current scientific research does not support the heliocentric model that is accepted as correct by the scientific community.

That is, scientists think that what scientists think is wrong, and so scientists think that scientists should think something other than what scientists think.

This is even more bizarre than your delusions about cosmology.


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JonF
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Posts: 3483
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 27 of 54 (761350)
06-30-2015 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Suzanne Romano
06-30-2015 3:32 PM


Re: SYNOPSIS SCENE II
I read you synopses.

No evidence.

Lots of unsupported claims.


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Diomedes
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Posts: 566
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 28 of 54 (761351)
06-30-2015 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Suzanne Romano
06-30-2015 12:46 PM


Re: RICKER BIO
Harry Hamlin Ricker III is a retired electrical engineer who writes commentaries on physical science, science history, impact of science on society and the philosophy of science. He has a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from Virginia Tech and a Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering from the University of New Hampshire. He has worked for Illinois Institute Of Technology Research Institute, Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory, and Communications Satellite Corporation. He has been an amateur astronomer for nearly 50 years and was leader of the Natural Philosophy Alliance relativity interest group for five years. He lives in Newport News, VA.

Logical Fallacy - Appeal to Authority (or Non-Authority)

Definition: Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument. As the audience, allowing an irrelevant authority to add credibility to the claim being made.

---------------------------------

To expand on this further, I have a degree in Electrical Engineering as well. Graduated in 1996. That degree does not in any way make me an expert on any subject matter within the realm of cosmology any more than a cosmologist is an expert on circuit theory or electromagnetic theory.

And being an 'amateur astronomer' basically stipulates within the confines of the definition that the individual is an amateur, NOT an expert.


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JonF
Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 29 of 54 (761352)
06-30-2015 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Suzanne Romano
06-30-2015 3:06 PM


Accelerating reference frames notnot a fact? Never spun a top or threw a Frisbee?

Accelerating frames exist and can be detected by those in them in many ways.

Let's get specific. Foucalt pendulum. Explained in your own words. Go!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Suzanne Romano, posted 06-30-2015 4:41 PM JonF has responded

  
Suzanne Romano
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 58
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 30 of 54 (761355)
06-30-2015 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Diomedes
06-30-2015 4:16 PM


RICKER BIO
There is such a thing as an expert witness.

In court, the appeal to authority is a valid maneuver when backed up by real expertise.

Of course this man is not setting himself up as an expert, though he is certainly affirming he has the competence to judge a science documentary about physics. The man is doing what every other author does: provide some biographical information to the public to orient them to his point of view.

Yes there does exist the logical fallacy you cite, and yes it is perfectly appropriate to list one's credentials when publishing an article.

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