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Author Topic:   Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 91 of 166 (777193)
01-27-2016 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by LamarkNewAge
01-27-2016 9:00 AM


Re: I will keep this short.
quote:
If people have no respect for what Jesus said, and what the early Jewish-Christian communities (associated with James the Just) believed, then it is tough to have a conversation.

You may have written more things then I took the time to read.
But the above doesn't make sense to me.

Things you write that make sense, I can respond to.
I know James as a respected leader of the church in Jerusalem, kind of had his foot in two covenants - the age old testament covenant and the new. It is quite understandable that the brother of Jesus would be looked to as a leader of a new religion, so-to-speak. We probably would have done similarly - grab the brother of Jesus to take the community of faith onward.

However, God used James to write one book in the New Testament but used Paul to write about 13 or 14.

I probably didn't read something you wrote about James adhering to reincarnation. So I really don't get your scolding me about James. And I don't get the scolding about not believing Jesus. I'm sorry.

quote:

Somebody earlier wrote Jesus, James, the Ebionites, and the Elkesaites as simply a bunch of "new age mystics" (if I quoted them correctly) and instead preferred the later traditions of the Greco-Roman church as the pre-eminent authority.

No comment. I didn't write that.

quote:

I will listen to you, but you have to have respect for the earliest evident communities of the family of Jesus.

I am not sure what it is you want me to notice about the church in Jerusalem under the leadership of the elder James as far as it pertains to reincarnation.

I could write a lot about James. I don't know what this brother has to do with reincarnation. In fact, his one epistle has no hint at all about reincarnation. And if we went through it, I think you would see that it says things quite differently.

There is no hope put in successive lives, reincarnated moving towards some ideal.

He does say that the word of God implanted into the soul will save the soul.
He does say that God brought the believers forth as firstfruits of his creatures.

It is not a moving from lifetimes to lifetime to lifetime as different people towards oneness with God.

The salvation in James pertains to an individual's ONE given life on this earth.
Do you disagree? If so show me in James why you do.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-27-2016 9:00 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 92 of 166 (777194)
01-27-2016 10:08 AM


LNR,

quote:

Nobody has responded to the issue of the early communities at all.

I do find that offensive when I see people who call themselves "Christian" totally disrespect the James (associated) community of Ebionites by ignoring them and their (identifiably) early offshoots (like the Elkesaites). It bears the mark of outright indifference. And I have witnessed it by self-professed "Christians" in this thread.


You're going to get hit from all sides on this Forum. Better get use to it

Now, I think some questions to you, I have not noticed answers to yet.
If I come back as Mr. B, Miss C, Mr. D, Mr. E and so on for many new incarnations of me, whose life will I be responsible for before God ?

Do you recall ANY benefit you have now OVER the last two or three incarnations of your soul ? You don't know anything about you supposed past life. It wasn't YOURS. That is why you have no remembrance.

You cannot claim someone else's life as your own.
There is with ONE tremendous exception. We can receive Jesus Christ to blend, mingle, and live in us in an incorporated way. God can dispense Jesus' life and nature into your being in new birth.

Remember, I referred to Paul's words about Christ living in the believers.
And that was in one of your undisputed Pauline epistles, I think, - Second Corinthians.

He was being 100% consistent with what Jesus taught.

" Abide in Me and I in you. " (John 15:4a)

That is a mingling of Jesus Christ with the person in whom abides in the sphere and realm of Jesus. We are called to live in Him. And in turn He lives His life in and through us.

Here he said He and His Father as the Triune God, would come to make an abode in those lovers of Him.

" Judas, not Iscariot, said to Him, Lord, and what has happened that You are to manifest Yourself to us and not to the world?

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:22,23)

Jesus and the Father as the Divine "We" through the Holy Spirit come to make an abode in those who love Him and keep His word.

Jesus is available. He came to make an abode with me many years ago.
He is still moving into more and more chambers of my being as it is a lifelong process.

So if I had 100 lives, I would not want to waste one of them not having Jesus and His Father as the Spirit come as the Divine "We" to make an abode with me. I only need ONE LIFE to turn over all my heart and inner being to Him.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 93 of 166 (777198)
01-27-2016 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by NoNukes
01-26-2016 9:21 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
I am a Christian, and I don't find the after the fact prophecy to be compelling. It is small wonder that others feel it same way.

After the fact explanations of Jesus' life by Himself and His apostles, you do not find compelling ?

Do you mean you are a Christian who does not find Peter's message about Jesus in Acts 2 compelling ?

How about the after the fact interpretation of His death and resurrection given by Himself ?

"And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken !

Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory ? " (Luke 24:25,26)

I find these and other "after the fact" explanations of Jesus compelling.
You don't as a Christian ? That would be surprising to me.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 9:21 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2016 12:59 PM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 94 of 166 (777199)
01-27-2016 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by LamarkNewAge
01-26-2016 11:24 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
Romans 9 might be an exception. (Historians seem certain that the massive bulk of what Paul said is clear enough to settle the issue and thus is an indication that he DID NOT teach that Jesus was God)

You have Romans in your list of "authentic" letters of Paul.
So you have no problem with saying these are Paul's thoughts.

Now let's go to the 8th chapter of Romans. Here we do not see a systematic theological formal. But we do see his "shop talk". In other words he is speaking of the experience of his audience.

In speaking of the experience of his audience Paul uses, seamlessly and enterchangeably some titles -

The Spirit of God
The Spirit of Christ
Christ
The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead,

Notice how, in speaking of the Christians' enjoyment and subjective experience, he moves from one title to the the next without taking a breath. Each title speaks of the One who indwells the believers.

"But you are not in the flesh. but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11)

Once again. A statement of systematic theology this is not. But it is "shop talk" in which his audience seems is suppose to perfectly understand that -

Christ is the Spirit of Christ.
Christ is the Spirit of God.
Christ is also the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.

It is not FOUR separated Persons who indwell the believers. It is One mysterious Person with interchangeable titles, for man's enjoyment. For Paul the Spirit of God is Christ. And He is also the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.

This verse is about the experience of the Trinity as an indwelling One giving divine life.
My God is the Man Jesus Christ. And He is able to dispense Himself into us.

This portion talks about the indwelling God Who gives life. And it agrees with Paul in the other letter First Corinthians that Christ became a life giving Spirit.

" ... the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45)

To give life here really means to give God Himself - the uncreated and eternal life.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-26-2016 11:24 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 12:34 AM jaywill has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 95 of 166 (777204)
01-27-2016 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jaywill
01-27-2016 10:52 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Do you mean you are a Christian who does not find Peter's message about Jesus in Acts 2 compelling ?

Whoa, dude. You assume too much here. Your trying to conclude from my statement essentially that anything written post Jesus is wrong. That's not what I mean at all.

What I don't subscribe to is the faux prophecy and numerology aspect of Bible study that make up the bulk of the sermons of many pastors but which don't advance Christianity or Christs essential message in any way.

But in the case of this particular context, what we are talking about is what makes a sensible argument. Yours argument is simply weak, but in my opinion, unnecessary. Attempts to build a bridge between Abraham and Jesus might be important if your task was to convince Jews that they missed the Messiah, but I don't have that particular problem.

Your question is totally off point. It is not relevant to the question at hand. It has some relevance to the topic of the thread, but given that we agree wrt reincarnation, I really don't get your point.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 10:52 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 5:20 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 166 (777209)
01-27-2016 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by LamarkNewAge
01-27-2016 7:44 AM


Re: I will keep this short.
This has nothing to do with the topic.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-27-2016 7:44 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13023
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 97 of 166 (777210)
01-27-2016 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by LamarkNewAge
01-26-2016 11:34 PM


Re: "new age mystics"?
LamarkNewAge writes:

My arguments are based on seeing what is actually there.


Your arguments trip over the stumbling block of canon.

First Sect: "According to the Gospel of Flintstone, Jesus believed in reincarnation."
Second Sect; "We don't accept the Gospel of Flintstone."
First Sect: "Why not?"
Second Sect: "Because it talks about reincarnation."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-26-2016 11:34 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 98 of 166 (777228)
01-27-2016 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by NoNukes
01-27-2016 12:59 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
Whoa, dude. You assume too much here. Your trying to conclude from my statement essentially that anything written post Jesus is wrong. That's not what I mean at all.

I'm just going on what you said - after the fact prophetic explanations are suspect.
If I assumed much, then I wouldn't have asked for an explanation.

quote:

What I don't subscribe to is the faux prophecy and numerology aspect of Bible study that make up the bulk of the sermons of many pastors but which don't advance Christianity or Christs essential message in any way.

Up to now I am still puzzled.
I think, I go on a case by case basis.

I am not sure if by numerology, you mean something like the De-Vince Code.
That numbers have typologolical significance, in some cases, in Scripture, I have been persuaded.

quote:

But in the case of this particular context, what we are talking about is what makes a sensible argument. Yours argument is simply weak, but in my opinion, unnecessary. Attempts to build a bridge between Abraham and Jesus might be important if your task was to convince Jews that they missed the Messiah, but I don't have that particular problem.

The Gospel of Matthew DOES draw a connection between the two.

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matt. 1:1)

I think that Jesus Himself drew a connection between Himself and Abraham. For example, when He said -


" ... If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God;

Abraham did not do this." (John 8:39,40)

In Luke 16:22 Jesus told of an account of a poor man being carried away in death, into Abraham's bosom. His teaching there is an integral part of His message concerning His ministry.

So I think a bridge between Abraham and Jesus was built by Jesus.

"Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am." (John 8:58)

quote:

Your question is totally off point. It is not relevant to the question at hand. It has some relevance to the topic of the thread, but given that we agree wrt reincarnation, I really don't get your point.

You said after the fact prophecy you count as bogus, basically.
I take that to mean that after the event prophetic speaking concerning the significance of the event, is taken by you as bogus.

I was trying to see how far you take that. Jesus explained (after the fact) the significance of His death and resurrection, as did Peter and the other apostles.

My attitude is that I am completely open to what latter prophets and apostles expounded about earlier events. Extra- biblical explanations, I take on a case by case basis.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2016 12:59 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2016 8:35 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 99 of 166 (777233)
01-27-2016 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by jaywill
01-27-2016 5:20 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

You are completely ignoring the context which is not just an ancestor/descendant relationship. This conversation is becoming too difficult and does not seem to be accomplishing all that much.

That numbers have typologolical significance, in some cases, in Scripture, I have been persuaded.

I am well aware of that you are so persuaded.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 5:20 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 762
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 166 (777243)
01-28-2016 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by jaywill
01-27-2016 11:31 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Jaywill quoted me saying this below.

quote:

Romans 9 might be an exception. (Historians seem certain that the massive bulk of what Paul said is clear enough to settle the issue and thus is an indication that he DID NOT teach that Jesus was God)

Then he said.

quote:

You have Romans in your list of "authentic" letters of Paul.
So you have no problem with saying these are Paul's thoughts.


They historians say Romans was written close to 60 AD.

Here is a page where you can see Bart Ehrman talk about Christology (that is study of what exactly the Christians thought Jesus was and when) Lots of videos.

http://www.patheos.com/.../templates/primaryJSP/fullview.jsp

Here is a fundamentalist linguist & greek expert talking about the linguistic difficulty (if not impossibility) he has to face in defending the Pastoral Epistles as Pauline.

https://bible.org/...1-timothy-introduction-argument-outline

Here he is again, and dealing with an important early manuscript of Paul's letters which lacks the Pastorals.
http://danielbwallace.com/tag/pastoral-epistles/

quote:

Now let's go to the 8th chapter of Romans. Here we do not see a systematic theological formal. But we do see his "shop talk". In other words he is speaking of the experience of his audience.

In speaking of the experience of his audience Paul uses, seamlessly and enterchangeably some titles -

The Spirit of God
The Spirit of Christ
Christ
The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead,

Notice how, in speaking of the Christians' enjoyment and subjective experience, he moves from one title to the the next without taking a breath. Each title speaks of the One who indwells the believers.

"But you are not in the flesh. but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11)

Once again. A statement of systematic theology this is not. But it is "shop talk" in which his audience seems is suppose to perfectly understand that -

Christ is the Spirit of Christ.
Christ is the Spirit of God.
Christ is also the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.

It is not FOUR separated Persons who indwell the believers. It is One mysterious Person with interchangeable titles, for man's enjoyment. For Paul the Spirit of God is Christ. And He is also the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.

This verse is about the experience of the Trinity as an indwelling One giving divine life.
My God is the Man Jesus Christ. And He is able to dispense Himself into us.


But Jesus is considered the "eternal son of God" and it is considered a heresy to say that Jesus was just fulfilling a temporary "office" in the flesh. Jesus isn't simply "God the son" (in a temporary 30 year period) but he is considered a separate entity on his own. For one and all time. That is according to the typical interpretation of the Christological heretic hunters. Your interpretation is a heresy worthy of death.

Here is a Jehovah's Witness site that mentions this verse in its broader context.

quote:

H O L Y
S P I R I T

The Bible

When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, he shall testify of me (John 15:26).

When he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8).

When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth (John 16:13).

The Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, he shall teach you all things (John 14:26).

His spirit that dwells in you (Romans 8:11).

Be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18; see also I Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 3:16).

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his (Romans 8:9; see also vv. 14, 16).

Jehovah Witnesses

The holy spirit is the invisible active force of Almighty God which moves his servants to do his will (LG, p. 108).

http://www.menorah.org/jewitnes.html


So they make that verse even broader than just the 2 person's of the trinity (God and Jesus). They find a bunch of other verses.

quote:

This portion talks about the indwelling God Who gives life. And it agrees with Paul in the other letter First Corinthians that Christ became a life giving Spirit.

" ... the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45)

To give life here really means to give God Himself - the uncreated and eternal life.


Good this this is the 21st century or you would get killed for taking away from the separate existence of the 3 persons of the Trinity.

Philippians 2 is interpreted, by historians, as an "exaltation" Christology, but not inborn incarnation at conception.

Your verses don't support incarnation Christological views.

See the Bart Ehrman videos above. I have not but I know that he is an accessible expert on the Christological issues.

I'm just trying to report what has been said. I don't know for sure myself. Just keep in mind that Paul is the decisive factor when it comes to early Christian evidence since the Gospels date later. Mark doesn't even have the virgin birth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 11:31 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jaywill, posted 01-28-2016 9:21 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 101 of 166 (777262)
01-28-2016 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by LamarkNewAge
01-28-2016 12:34 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
LNR,

Let me only mention that I have heard lectures from Bart Erhman. And I have seen some debates with him also. I would say I have heard about five. Through Teaching Company cassettes and CDs, I took the initiative to listen to lectures by Dr. Erhman several years ago.

I want to pay more attention to our talk on Romans below right now.

quote:
But Jesus is considered the "eternal son of God" and it is considered a heresy to say that Jesus was just fulfilling a temporary "office" in the flesh.

I believe Jesus is God incarnate. And though the phrase "eternal Son of God" I don't find in the Bible, the Son of God is the eternal God, no doubt.

He was "made both Lord and Christ" as to an "office" forever.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you have crucified." (Acts 2:26)

We should see that His being eternal before incarnation does not negate that God made installed Him in an "office," if you wish as "Lord and Christ"

The "office" is forever into the eternity -

" Who has been appointed not according to the law of a fleshy commandment but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is testified, 'You are a Priest forever according to the order of Melchisedec.' (Hebrews 7:16,17)

He Who was God, uncreated and eternal, became a man. And in resurrection was established in an "office" which extends eternally.

quote:

Jesus isn't simply "God the son" (in a temporary 30 year period) but he is considered a separate entity on his own.

The way we put it where I meet, is that He is distinct but not separate. But this is very difficult for human beings to explain - the three - oneness of God. That is why the Romans passage is so good. It just takes for granted that the believers were in the experience of this "three-oneness".

There are some things that are experiential and enjoyable though not [edited] easy or perhaps possible to fully explain. The Father and the Son are distinct but not separate.
The Holy Spirit and the Son and the Father are distinct but never separated.

quote:

For one and all time. That is according to the typical interpretation of the Christological heretic hunters. Your interpretation is a heresy worthy of death.

Sounds like the Grand Inquisition here.
So far, I have agreed the Son of God is eternal - God is eternal.
I have said that as a man He still was made Lord and Christ, an "office" if you like that word.
And I have said He is installed in that office forever.

I am willing by God's grace to die for those beliefs.
But I don't yet see where your charge of "heresy" comes in in any of this.

quote:

Here is a Jehovah's Witness site that mentions this verse in its broader context.

I don't know why you want to bring in Jehovah Witnesses' rehash of the ideas of Arius. I am not sure of the point you want to make.

quote:

H O L Y
S P I R I T

The Bible

When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, he shall testify of me (John 15:26).

When he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8).

... etc. [skipping]

So they make that verse even broader than just the 2 person's of the trinity (God and Jesus). They find a bunch of other verses.


The Another Comforter is the first Comforter in another form.
There are not two Comforters in John's Gospel, but one.

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever. (v.16)

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. (v.17)

I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (v.18)

If you read carefully, you will see that the He of verse 17 suddenly becomes the I of verse 18. The coming of the "Another Comforter - the Spirit of reality" is the coming of Jesus who says -

" I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."

So Jesus not leaving them as orphans but coming to them is exactly the sending of the Spirit of reality to them as "another Comforter" . Please notice that they knew this Person as abiding WITH them. But they are going to know Him as abiding IN them.

" ... but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you."

For three and one half years the man Jesus of Nazareth had abode WITH the disciples. They travel, slept, ate, walked and worked with Him. He was physically WITH them. But soon after His resurrection, He will abide IN them as the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of reality.

" I will not leave you as orphans; I AM COMING TO YOU."

So mysteriously, the second Comforter is the first Comforter in His form as the Spirit.
So mysteriously, the "another Comforter" is the first Comforter not leaving them as orphans but coming to them.

I showed before that Jesus told them that He and His Father as the Divine " We " were coming to make an abode in His lovers (John 14:23) . The Trinity is about God dispensing Himself into man.

In the book of Romans Jesus Christ is located in two places. He is at the right hand of God interceding for the believers (Rom. 8:34). But He is also indwelling the believers (v. 10).

The Christ who lives within them - "But if Christ is in you ..." (v.10) is also the One at the right hand of God in the third heavens praying for them - " Christ Jesus ... who is raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (v.34)

God can distribute Christ Jesus Himself in His form as the Spirit of reality and "another Comforter" into millions of people. This is wonderful.

What the Jehovah's Witnesses will not tell you - because they have no experience of it and do not believe, is that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit. So says the New Testament.

" And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. " (v.17)

While the Jehovah Witnesses really want to stay in the Old Testament, they will talk about the Third of the Triune God - the Holy Spirit in terms of a force or power. But the New Testament says "And the Lord is the Spirit"

There is no question that "the Lord" there means Jesus. In the next chapter we read - " For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (4:5) . So the Lord Christ Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Or the Holy Spirit is Jesus in a form in which Jesus can be received into our hearts. That is Jesus can come and live in us. We can receive Jesus the Lord into our innermost spiritual being.

I prayed " Lord Jesus, I receive You. " In fact I continue to open up my whole being to receive Him into every part of my soul. So I need no reincarnation. I need to allow the one Perfect Life - the Lord Jesus to make His home in my heart through faith.

" That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph. 3:17)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 12:34 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 9:39 AM jaywill has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 762
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 166 (777266)
01-28-2016 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by jaywill
01-28-2016 9:21 AM


Your Romans quote.
It does not back up the idea that Jesus was God, especially not from an at-conception incarnation.

It talks about the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ.

You say they were used interchangeably.

Jehovah's Witnesses rehash Arius?

What were the arguments of Arius? Arius said that Jesus was not of the exact same substance as God. The Roman Catholics said he was, and they appealed to a church tradition, homoosios (a term not found in scripture), to back it up.

Are you sure JW use the same arguments?

I have no clue.

Its irrelevant.

So that Romans chapter 8 is your evidence that there was an incarnation. If we see mentioned a "spirit of God" and a "spirit of Christ" in the same verse then that proves that not only did Paul think Jesus to be God, but there was a spermless incarnation at conception?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jaywill, posted 01-28-2016 9:21 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jaywill, posted 01-28-2016 10:58 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 103 of 166 (777272)
01-28-2016 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by LamarkNewAge
01-28-2016 9:39 AM


Re: Your Romans quote.
quote:
It does not back up the idea that Jesus was God, especially not from an at-conception incarnation.

When we say Jesus is God we do not mean to say Jesus was not a man.
In Jesus there is the mingling of God and man.

When we say Jesus is a man or the Son of Man we do not mean that Jesus is not God.

In Jesus there is the mingling of God with man. The 14th chapter of John begins -

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me."

Believe in God, says this man. Then believe also in or into Him. This is God going through a kind of process to dispense God INTO man. This is about a journey of God branching out and branching INTO human beings.

His eternal purpose is that God and man would be mingled as one.
The Head of this dispensing of God into man is Jesus Christ. Therefore He is not only called the only begotten Son of God but also "the Firstborn among many brothers" (Rom. 8:29)

You can read more about this 'Economy of God" at www.godseconomy.org.

quote:

It talks about the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ.

Yes, Second Corinthians said both "the Lord is the Spirit" and it also said "the Spirit of the Lord". It is by the "life giving Spirit" that God can come into us to be our life.

You know He had to go to the cross to shed His redeeming blood. For the barrier between fallen man and God is the obstacle of our sins. Our sins have made a separation. God is perfect in holiness and perfect in righteousness. And Jesus said He would go to the cross to make a place for us to be able to get into God.

" Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me. In My Father's house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go and prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be." (John 14:1-3)

He wants us to know that not only He can enjoy this mingling of the Divine and the human, but we also can be saved and brought into this enjoyment. If it were the case that only He could be one with God - why He would have told us.

His going away here is not going to Heaven to fix up mansions there. It is His going away to His death on Calvary to prepare a way for us sinners to be brought into God as well.

His coming again to receive us to Himself is related to His coming into the believers to make an abode with them in verse 23.

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (v.23)

This is the same word in the plural form which is found in verse 2 - "In My Father's house are many ABODES [plural]" (v.2) . The singular is found in verse 23 where He says He and His Father will come and make AN ABODE [singular] with His lovers.

" ... We will come to him and make an ABODE with him." (v.23)

Everything I shared with you from Romans 8 is consistent with this teaching of Jesus. The Father and the Son as the Divine "WE" come to indwell the believers in Jesus.

The Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ Himself = the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

When I received Jesus, God became real to me. I could not say I KNEW God before I received Jesus and the forgiveness of sins which came WITH receiving Jesus.

quote:

You say they were used interchangeably.

Jehovah's Witnesses rehash Arius?


To the Jehovah Witnesses Jesus Christ is the same as Michael the archangel. They vehemently deny that God became a man. Essentially, they want to go back to a Law keeping Old Testament. And the Law to the Watchtower Society really has to do with going door to door and preaching JW doctrines.

There is nothing wrong with going door to door to preach if it is not wrong preaching and teaching. But going door to door teaching that Jesus is the archangel Michael and not the Word Who was God and WAS God, is rebellion against Jehovah.

Jesus said after His resurrection that the disciples would be HIS ... witnesses -

" ... and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8b)

Jesus is Jehovah become a man. Jesus is the mingling of God and man. And He came not only that we could have forgiveness through redemption, but that we also might be the continuation of God dispensing Himself into man.

quote:

Are you sure JW use the same arguments?

Same argument as what ?? The JWs do not believe Jesus is God.
The JWs do not believe that Holy Spirit is God.
The JWs teach that the Son of God - Jesus, is the archangel Michael.
And many wrong things they teach because really rather than witnessing for Jehovah God they are in rebellion against the revelation of Jehovah God in Christ.

That is enough JW bashing.

quote:

I have no clue.

Its irrelevant.

So that Romans chapter 8 is your evidence that there was an incarnation.


It is not my ONLY biblical evidence. I used it because it is experiencial fellowship proving that Paul and his audience were enjoying the indwelling of Christ which was the indwelling of God. This is the normal Christian life.

I didn't say it was necessarily the typical Christian life. But it is the normal Christian life. God is seeking to recover this enjoyment among His believers in Christ.

quote:

If we see mentioned a "spirit of God" and a "spirit of Christ" in the same verse then that proves that not only did Paul think Jesus to be God, but there was a spermless incarnation at conception?

The incarnation was a miracle in which that which was begotten in the virgin woman was of the Holy Spirit. No human father was involved. God as a child was conceive within her. He had two natures - the nature of the Divine and the nature of the human. He was and is God-man.

He had to be Man in order to be able to die.
He had to be God to make the effectiveness of that death have eternal efficacy.

He was God by way of incarnation.
The saved become sons of God by way of His salvation.
Both matters are about the eternal plan of God becoming one entity with His creature human beings.

As I spoke before, by excising John, belittling it from the rest of the New Testament, you lose some of this profound truth. Jesus came to make us as He is though He remains the HEAD of this corporate entity and the saved - the Body.

John 12:24 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone; but IF IT DIES ... IT BEARS MUCH FRUIT." [my emphasis]

I think you should read aloud a chapter of the Gospel of John first thing in the morning until you've re-made a place in your heart for John's revelation. Just a thought. Maybe some good sounding yet wrong notions have been too much put into your mind by people like Bart Erhman.

Did you ever see Peter say - " As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation." ( 1 Pet. 2:2) ?

Taste the pure word. Feed your inner hunger and thirst with the pure word.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 9:39 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 4:17 PM jaywill has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 762
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 166 (777287)
01-28-2016 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jaywill
01-28-2016 10:58 AM


Re: Your Romans quote.
If you keep falling back on the Gospel of John (and very exclusively so, considering Romans is the topic) to support a Hindu type of God-in-the-womb incarnation, then you will be left with a Jehovah's Witness type of Christological situation for most, if not all, of the first century AD.

You attacked Jehovah's Witnesses for not accepting the Holy Spirit as a separate member of the God-head, but in the same breath you interpreted two separate members of the Godhead (God and Jesus)Romans 9 as having just one spirit. You essentially took a (sort of)modalistic type of interpretation.

Here is Romans 8

quote:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


If Romans 8 is your evidence for a God-in-the-womb incarnation, then I almost feel like reconsidering my statement earlier that Paul taught an incarnation.

Are you sure you are familiar with Bart Ehrman? Were you paying attention to those tapes? Just like Muslims and Jehovah's witnesses have a hell of a time using the Gospel of John to support their theology, Romans causes "Orthodox Christian" Christological views to suffer endless contradictions with the plain reading of Paul's text.

I think Romans 8 should tell us a lot about why Arius had such a strong following.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jaywill, posted 01-28-2016 10:58 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jaywill, posted 01-28-2016 7:28 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 105 of 166 (777304)
01-28-2016 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by LamarkNewAge
01-28-2016 4:17 PM


Re: Your Romans quote.
quote:
If you keep falling back on the Gospel of John (and very exclusively so, considering Romans is the topic) to support a Hindu type of God-in-the-womb incarnation, then you will be left with a Jehovah's Witness type of Christological situation for most, if not all, of the first century AD.

God incarnating as a man is in John's Gospel. I hope you're not expecting any kind of apology for referring to John. I'll certainly continue using John.

However, before John by many centuries, the prophet Isaiah told us that God would be incarnated in Isaiah 9:6.

"For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. "(Isa. 9:5)

There are two lines in this prophecy. The "child ... born" is called "Mighty God". And the "son ... given" is called "Eternal Father".

The little child who was conceived and was in the womb of Mary for nine months was the Mighty God. The "Mighty God" became a born child. And the "son" was the manifestation of the "Eternal Father".

This is long before John wrote - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) And then in verse 14 - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as an only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality."

Before God spoke through the apostle John that the Logos with God and Who was God became flesh, God spoke through Isaiah that a born child would be called Mighty God and a given Son would be called "Eternal Father" .

By the time we come to Romans this God Who has incarnated has been dispensed into His believers as "the Spirit of God" Who is "the Spirit of Christ" and is "Christ" .

To fight against this people have to begin to splice off parts of the Bible here and there claiming that they are not suppose to be there. So you have done with the Gospel of John and other books.

Perhaps, you will next begin to reason that Isaiah 9:6 also should not be there. But it is better to simply say "Amen" to what God has revealed through His apostles and prophets.

quote:

You attacked Jehovah's Witnesses for not accepting the Holy Spirit as a separate member of the God-head, but in the same breath you interpreted two separate members of the Godhead (God and Jesus)Romans 9 as having just one spirit. You essentially took a (sort of)modalistic type of interpretation.

You are incorrect here. I charge the Jehovah Witnesses for not teaching like the Bible, that "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17). The Holy Spirit to them is only a force.

As for two "separate" members of the Godhead, you apparently did not listen when I said the Father and the Son are distinct but not separate.

quote:

Here is Romans 8

quote:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Sometimes the translators are not sure whether a capital "S" should be used for "spirit" or a small "s". The Recovery Version which is my favorite among a number of good English versions, has a small "s" in verse 4.

It reads "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit."

The small "s" - spirit means the HUMAN spirit. And it is small s because it is contrasted with the fallen human flesh. IE. " ... not walk according to the [human] flesh but according to the [human] spirit."

The contrast between the two is nicely observed in John 6 where Jesus is speaking of the new birth - to be born again or born from above -

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) .

The new birth takes place in the innermost part of man - his human spirit. The human spirit is comatose and deadened. And when we receive the Lord Jesus into our heart the human spirit is born of the Holy Spirit Who is God Himself - "That which is born of the [human] flesh is flesh" in the first natural birth from our human parents. In the second birth, in being "born again" the comatose and deadened human spirit is born of the Spirit of God. The small s spirit of man is born of the capital S Spirit - " ... and that which is born of the Spirit is [human] spirit"

So the Apostle Paul says in Romans that he served God in his (Paul's) regenerated human spirit. That means his innermost kernel of his being which had been born again - born of the Spirit -

"For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of His Son" (Rom. 1:9a)

You see? Paul serves God with HIS - Paul's human spirit .

He serves God in the Holy Spirit by means of serving God in his born again human spirit. And it is the regenerated human spirit that he probably refers to when he writes - " ... do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit." (Rom. 8:4)

In the same chapter the two spirits - the human spirit and the Holy Spirit, are seen as the latter bears witness with the former in verse 16 -

" The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (v.16)

Here you have "The [capital S] Spirit Himself" meaning the Holy Spirit - the Third of the Trinity. And you have "our [small s] spirit" meaning the human spirit which has been born of God.

It is a tremendous thing to discover that we have another part of our being that can be BORN of God called our human spirit.

So our human spirit can be born of the capital S Spirit (John 3:6).
And then we know that we are children of the Father. And we know that we know because - "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit ..." .

When the human spirit is BORN of the Holy Spirit then the two become mingled as one spirit. That is why it is rather difficult for the translators because the Bible is talking about a mingled spirit - the Holy Spirit made to be joined to our human spirit -

" He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit " (1 Cor. 6:17) .

How can Jesus Christ come and live in us ? He can become "one spirit" so that there is an "organic" union between Himself and us. He can bear witness with our spirit because He has joined Himself with our spirit to be "one spirit".

So the translation of the Recovery Version reads this way in verse 9 and 10. Notice the small s to indicate the born again HUMAN spirit -

"But you are not in the flesh but in the [human] spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him. (v.9)

But if Christ is in you, though the [human] body is dead because of sin, the [regenerated human] spirit is life because of righteousness." (v.10)

I will continue below with the human spirit and the Holy Spirit - being JOINED to become "one spirit". But this too is the mingling of God and man.

quote:

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Here again, the RcV has been very helpful and translates this -

"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (v.6)

Because the mind set on the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither can it be." (v.7)

And those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (v.8) .

The bottom line here:

1.) We need to have our comatose and deadened human spirit BORN of the Holy Spirit.

2.) We need to experience the Holy Spirit bearing witness with our new regenerated spirit that we are indeed "organically" children of God, whom we can now call "Abba Father" or like "Daddy".

3.) We need to serve God in our regenerated spirit as Paul did.

4.) We need then to set our mind on our born again spirit where the Lord Jesus is JOINED to us as "one spirit" .

Now you may know that the final words of a man are very important. And so the final words of the Apostle Paul is to Timothy. And it is that the Lord Jesus Christ is WITH Timothy's spirit. This he never wants Timothy to forget. Thus Paul's final word in his epistles -

" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." ( 2 Tim. 4:22)

His younger co-worker must never forget that the living Lord Jesus Christ is WITH his spirit - his innermost nucleus of his whole being. There in his regenerated spirit is the enjoyment, the empowering, the life of Christ and the grace of Christ by which he can live.

Timothy - Never forget - The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

The Lord Jesus Christ is with my spirit too.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 4:17 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 10:46 PM jaywill has responded

  
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