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Author Topic:   A Simplified Proof That The Universe Cannot Be Explained
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5562
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 241 of 320 (785355)
06-03-2016 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by NoNukes
06-01-2016 4:02 AM


Re: Uncaused things don't need prior cause explanations.
Hi NoNukes

NoNukes writes:

You understand that a vacuum is actually nothing, right?

I actually thought a vacuum was space devoid of matter.

NoNukes writes:

The two branes might well have existed in another universe, right? I know that is not allowed in the OPs theory.


Sure if multiverse's exist.

But according to nano quote from OP

quote:
for my purposes the term universe = multiverse = all of existence.

Universe first then its inhabitants.

Back to real Multiverse's.
But if the math don't work before T=0 + 1 trillionth of a second how can multiverse's ever be considered a hypothesis must less a theory ?

NoNukes writes:

Secondly, the total net energy in the current universe is at least approximately zero, and may well be zero.

Alan Guth's pipe dream of a free lunch.
Inflation was necessary to solve the horizon problem, the flatness problem and the magnetic monopole problem.

Problems created by inflation.
What started inflation?
What caused it to stop?
During the time of inflation the expansion was faster than the speed of light, how is that possible?
What caused the expansion to slow down?
What caused expansion to be speeding up today?

NoNukes writes:

God is simply part of the universe. My question was regarding why you might find such a situation of interest to you.

Whatever caused our universe to begin to exist would have to exist prior to the universe beginning to exist. It would have to be outside of the universe and uncaused whether it be God, the God particle, two branes banging together or Hawking's instanton.

nano writes:

3. This first thing has no cause since there was nothing before it.

This sentence erases the empty universe of #1 as there is no thing before it not even an empty universe.

Had he said the first thing in the universe had no cause since there was nothing before it. He would have been repeating the OP.

The problem with that is that the universe already existed.

The OP could have been much clearer.

I feel like a cat chasing his tail.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2016 4:02 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5562
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 242 of 320 (785356)
06-03-2016 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by nano
06-01-2016 8:29 AM


Hi nano

nano writes:

I could have been more clear in my OP but as I have stated I was trying to keep it simple.

You sure failed at keeping it simple.

nano writes:

1. Consider an empty universe.

Where did the empty universe come from?

nano writes:

3. This first thing has no cause since there was nothing before it.

But you have an empty universe already existing so there would be something before the first thing in the universe.

nano writes:

4. Therefore the universe cannot be explained.


Sure it can.

According to you it already existed which would make it be a uncaused entity.

nano writes:

5. Corollary - Alternately, the first thing might have always been there.

Since according to the OP the empty universe existed it could not have existed for eternity or maybe you can explain how it could.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by nano, posted 06-01-2016 8:29 AM nano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by nano, posted 06-07-2016 4:17 PM ICANT has responded

    
nano
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 09-25-2012


Message 243 of 320 (785596)
06-07-2016 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by ICANT
06-03-2016 4:27 AM


I donít know if you donít get my proof, or your just being argumentative. At the very least you have not read the conversation posted in this thread before you joined it. If you had made a sincere attempt to do so the answers would be clear to you.

Nevertheless:

The empty universe = the null set

There is nothing there, as in nothing exists. Literally, nothing.

I should think you would like my proof. With correct understanding it demonstrates your point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by ICANT, posted 06-03-2016 4:27 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-07-2016 5:26 PM nano has not yet responded
 Message 246 by ICANT, posted 06-07-2016 11:52 PM nano has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11185
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 244 of 320 (785601)
06-07-2016 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by nano
06-07-2016 4:17 PM


The empty universe = the null set

There is nothing there, as in nothing exists. Literally, nothing.

Well, the set is there... it's just empty. Here is a quote box with nothing in it:

quote:

Here is a quote box containing the empty set:

quote:
{}

You see how there is something, rather than nothing, in that second quote?

Also, given that the universe is made up of all the things that are in it, then it cannot exist as a set that is null. There wouldn't even be a universe there.

And even if it did, the fact that the set is there means that there isn't literally nothing... because there is something: the set.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by nano, posted 06-07-2016 4:17 PM nano has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2016 10:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 247 by ICANT, posted 06-07-2016 11:58 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9353
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 245 of 320 (785606)
06-07-2016 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by New Cat's Eye
06-07-2016 5:26 PM


You see how there is something, rather than nothing, in that second quote?

C'mon Cat Sci. You surely are aware that what is in the quote is a mathematical representation of an empty set. Of course the representation must have a physical appearance and nature even if the concept it represents does not.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-07-2016 5:26 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2016 10:05 AM NoNukes has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5562
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 246 of 320 (785608)
06-07-2016 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by nano
06-07-2016 4:17 PM


Hi nano

nano writes:

I donít know if you donít get my proof,

I think I understand what you want your argument to be.

But you want to start off with an empty universe.
That means you have something existing that you call an empty universe.

My question to you was where did that empty universe come from?

Now if you want to say existence existed eternally in the past, I could go along with that. Then later things, including the universe existed in that existence.

But no you say:

nano writes:

The empty universe = the null set

Universe exists but is empty.
How does an empty universe measure zero?

nano writes:

There is nothing there, as in nothing exists. Literally, nothing.

How can you have an empty universe and there be an absence of existence?

You can't. Because you have something that exists.

Since you have something that exists eternally it is explained as an eternal entity that has no cause.

nano writes:

I should think you would like my proof. With correct understanding it demonstrates your point.

Just give me the facts, as I search for the truth.

My point is that science and the Bible speak to the heavens and the earth beginning to exist.

Science can not explain the existence of the Universe.
The Bible does explain the existence of the Universe.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by nano, posted 06-07-2016 4:17 PM nano has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5562
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 247 of 320 (785609)
06-07-2016 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by New Cat's Eye
06-07-2016 5:26 PM


Hi Cat,

Cat writes:

You see how there is something, rather than nothing, in that second quote?

Why is the null set necessary to have something existing?

The quote box is there which means something exists, a quote box.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-07-2016 5:26 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2016 10:14 AM ICANT has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11185
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 248 of 320 (785626)
06-08-2016 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by NoNukes
06-07-2016 10:07 PM


The empty set is not nothing. It exists, has properties, and can have operations against it.

The OP erroneously views the universe as a container that can be empty. The universe is the things that exist, not a set that may or may not contain things.

If you want to analogize the universe as an empty set, then the universe itself is the first thing. There cannot be an empty universe in which the first thing then exists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2016 10:07 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 06-08-2016 12:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 256 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2016 5:13 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11185
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 249 of 320 (785627)
06-08-2016 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by ICANT
06-07-2016 11:58 PM


Cat writes:

You see how there is something, rather than nothing, in that second quote?

Why is the null set necessary to have something existing?

Because it is a thing, itself.

The quote box is there which means something exists, a quote box.

And the quote box is in a message, which is on a forum, which is on a website, which is on a server.... At some point we're going to have to draw a line and say that the medium in which we are communicating about somethings does not count as one of the things we are discussing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ICANT, posted 06-07-2016 11:58 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by ICANT, posted 06-08-2016 12:44 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12826
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 250 of 320 (785632)
06-08-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by New Cat's Eye
06-08-2016 10:05 AM


Cat Sci writes:

The OP erroneously views the universe as a container that can be empty. The universe is the things that exist, not a set that may or may not contain things.


Or... the universe includes both the container and the contents. The container exists, even if there is nothing "in" it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2016 10:05 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2016 12:20 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11185
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 251 of 320 (785635)
06-08-2016 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by ringo
06-08-2016 12:07 PM


Or... the universe includes both the container and the contents. The container exists, even if there is nothing "in" it.

The container is the contents... without the contents there is no container.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 06-08-2016 12:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 06-08-2016 12:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12826
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 252 of 320 (785640)
06-08-2016 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by New Cat's Eye
06-08-2016 12:20 PM


Cat Sci writes:

The container is the contents... without the contents there is no container.


I don't know if we agree or disagree.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2016 12:20 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2016 4:07 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5562
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 253 of 320 (785642)
06-08-2016 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by New Cat's Eye
06-08-2016 10:14 AM


Hi Cat

Cat writes:

And the quote box is in a message,

But you were presenting the quote box as the first thing just like nano's empty universe.

Existence is what is required for anything to exist, or begin to exist.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2016 10:14 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2016 3:43 PM ICANT has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11185
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 254 of 320 (785663)
06-08-2016 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ICANT
06-08-2016 12:44 PM


But you were presenting the quote box as the first thing just like nano's empty universe.

No, I wasn't.

The first quote box was to show one with nothing in it.

The second one was to show one with the empty set in it. That empty set would be the first thing that is in a quote box.

OP analogizes the universe as the empty set that then gets populated with things. That empty universe is called "nothing".

I was showing that even the empty set is something rather than nothing.

The point was that the first thing would be the universe itself rather than having an empty universe that then later contains the first thing.

Since the universe is made up of things, without things you cannot have a universe.

Existence is what is required for anything to exist, or begin to exist.

Existence is a property that things have, it does not exist independent of things. Existence cannot be a prerequisite for things anymore than things can be a prerequisite for existence. They're intertwined, one does not come before the other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ICANT, posted 06-08-2016 12:44 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ICANT, posted 06-08-2016 8:45 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11185
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 255 of 320 (785665)
06-08-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by ringo
06-08-2016 12:29 PM


Can you have a chemical element with no atoms?

Can you have a society with no people?

Can you have a universe with no things?

I say no.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 06-08-2016 12:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 06-09-2016 11:52 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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