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Author Topic:   Disadvantageous Mutations: Figures
JonF
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Joined: 06-23-2003
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Message 76 of 93 (801490)
03-06-2017 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by caffeine
03-06-2017 2:32 PM


He did not see if the result was a functioning protein. He saw if the result carried out the original function. I suspect you know this and worded it slightly sloppily.
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caffeine
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Posts: 1360
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 77 of 93 (801547)
03-07-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by New Cat's Eye
03-06-2017 3:05 PM


Got a link to the paper?

Behind a paywall. I read just the abstract and this article about the paper on Panda's Thumb. on Panda's Thumb.

Edited by caffeine, : tags


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caffeine
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Posts: 1360
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
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Message 78 of 93 (801548)
03-07-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by JonF
03-06-2017 3:06 PM


He did not see if the result was a functioning protein. He saw if the result carried out the original function. I suspect you know this and worded it slightly sloppily.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say - which is why his lowend probability estimate seems to be about the probability of a protein performing a specific function; rather than the probability of a protein with function.


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CRR
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Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 79 of 93 (802323)
03-15-2017 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
03-05-2017 9:38 PM


If you mash up any chemical system you'll change the outcome of the chemical process.

Precisely. Life is more than just chemical reactions.

Which are your 5 examples?


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 80 of 93 (802340)
03-15-2017 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by CRR
03-15-2017 1:39 AM


Life is more than just chemical reactions.

Sort of, but not really. What are you thinking of?


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 81 of 93 (802343)
03-15-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by CRR
03-15-2017 1:39 AM


Precisely. Life is more than just chemical reactions.

Yeah, there's also pixie dust and unicorn farts ... wait, no there isn't, what's your point?

Which are your 5 examples?

If you didn't read it, I suggest you do so.


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CRR
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Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 82 of 93 (802773)
03-20-2017 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dr Adequate
03-15-2017 10:43 AM


Here. http://www.discovery.org/...-is-it-easy-to-get-a-new-protein
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Pressie
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Posts: 1858
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 83 of 93 (802778)
03-20-2017 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by CRR
03-20-2017 6:47 AM


So, no quantitative result for measuring genetic information yet?
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Coyote
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Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 84 of 93 (802793)
03-20-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by CRR
03-20-2017 6:47 AM


Discovery Institute?
The Discovery Institute is not a very reliable venue for learning about science.

A prime example is their "Wedge strategy."

http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html

Two small quotes:

Discovery Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies. Bringing together leading scholars from the natural sciences and those from the humanities and social sciences, the Center explores how new developments in biology, physics and cognitive science raise serious doubts about scientific materialism and have re-opened the case for a broadly theistic understanding of nature. ...

Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.

In other words, they are advocating a "science" that conforms to their religious beliefs rather than following the evidence of the natural world.

In short: they are 180 degrees anti-science. I don't consider that a very good source of scientific knowledge.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 85 of 93 (802831)
03-20-2017 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by CRR
03-20-2017 6:47 AM


I think the peer-reviewed scientific papers may be more accurate than a failed propaganda organization. But if you think they have any good points backed up by actual evidence, please do present the evidence.
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CRR
Member
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 86 of 93 (802858)
03-20-2017 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Dr Adequate
03-20-2017 3:37 PM


You've got some nerve criticising my use of the Discovery Institute when you referenced a web site that doesn't even show the author's affiliations or qualifications. Next you'll be referencing Talk Origins.

[edit: I also note that site uses the definition "evolution - any change in a population's allele frequencies over time". This is a definition specific to population genetics and is not suitable as a general definition as I made clear in my post at http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=page&t=9452&mpp=15... . Perhaps you'd like to give your definition in that thread]

Ann Gauger is a zoologist with a BS in biology from MIT and a 1989 PhD from the University of Washington. As a post-doctoral fellow at Harvard she cloned and characterized the Drosophila kinesin light chain. Her research has been published in Nature, Development, and the Journal of Biological Chemistry.

The podcast I linked directly addresses one of the proteins mentioned in your link.

Edited by CRR, : para added


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Coyote
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Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 87 of 93 (802859)
03-20-2017 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by CRR
03-20-2017 10:11 PM


The Wedge Document again...
Ann Gauger is a zoologist with a BS in biology from MIT and a 1989 PhD from the University of Washington.

The problem is not one's education or credentials.

The problem is that to be associated with the Discovery Institute or any of the other similar religious-based fundamentalist organizations one must accept their particular religious beliefs. And the organizations' religious beliefs are always seen as superseding scientific evidence. It is obvious that religious belief can negate even the most distinguished academic education and credentials.

Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.

Robert A. Heinlein

Refer back to the Wedge document I linked to earlier. Those folks want to destroy "materialistic" science and replace it with "theistic" science.

Here's a good analysis of the Wedge document by the Sensuous Curmudgeon:

https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/...e-wedge-document

The Discovery Institute folks are clearly anti-science, and not a credible source for anything pertaining to science.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by CRR, posted 03-20-2017 10:11 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 88 of 93 (802860)
03-20-2017 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by CRR
03-20-2017 10:11 PM


You've got some nerve criticising my use of the Discovery Institute when you referenced a web site that doesn't even show the author's affiliations or qualifications.

But we can assume he's not affiliated with the Discovery Institute, so he's got that going for him. Also copious references to the peer-reviewed scientific literature.

I note that you declined my invitation; let me repeat it: "if you think they have any good points backed up by actual evidence, please do present the evidence."

I have in fact heard of Ann Gauger. Here she is in a Discovery Institute video, standing in front of what appears to be a Real Scientific Laboratory Where Science People Do Science ...

... but which is in fact a stock photograph.

It is hard to think of a more perfect metaphor for "creation science".


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NoNukes
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Posts: 10124
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 89 of 93 (802909)
03-21-2017 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Dr Adequate
03-20-2017 11:41 PM


Quote from Doctor Green Screen
deleted

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1858
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 90 of 93 (803113)
03-24-2017 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Dr Adequate
03-20-2017 11:41 PM


Ah, a creationist being photoshopped into a lab she's never worked in ...
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