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Author Topic:   A question about evolution
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2687
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 31 of 70 (798520)
02-03-2017 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Theodoric
02-02-2017 4:22 PM


Re: A little bit hairy
It is truly an occupational hazard when you try to deal with creationists. I've been doing it since the mid-1980's; what about you? We have seen so much creationist dishonesty and deception that every time a new creationist shows up we see it all again. Kind of like the trap that cops can fall into (my son is a cop) in that they see so much of the dregs of society and the worst of the worst that they look for it in everybody they meet. That is a very heavy burden.

On my site, I had tried to analyze creationist behavior. Now mind you, that can be very difficult when you are never able to get any feedback from creationists, so there's not much chance to test your hypotheses. I tried to look at their experience level as an indicator. Most creationists have had little to no experience outside of their religious community, so they are still very na´ve. They actually think that their claims and arguments are valid. Experience teaches them otherwise. The inexperienced ones will be more candid, while the more experienced ones will be more guarded, cagier. That is because the less experienced creationists still believe that their claims are true while the more experienced ones know that they are not, so they have to lie more and avoid actually discussing their claims. Needless to say, the more experienced the creationist is, the less likely that he would enter a forum such as this. An experienced creationist would be much more interested in avoiding any discussion of his claims, since he knows that his claims are false -- though theologically he could never actually admit that to himself. Therefore, the most likely new creationists that we would expect to join our forum would be the inexperienced ones. The experienced ones know to steer far clear of us.

Frankly, I think that Micah is genuine. He appears to be very young, maybe high school or early college. He appears to still be mainly immersed in his fundamentalist nonsense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2017 4:22 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Theodoric, posted 02-03-2017 9:45 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
CRR
Member
Posts: 71
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 32 of 70 (798526)
02-03-2017 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Coyote
02-01-2017 11:38 PM


I think Eskimos have relatively dark skin because they are derived from the same stock as American Indians. Sunlight and diet are probably minor factors. I.e founder effect.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Coyote, posted 02-01-2017 11:38 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2017 2:30 PM CRR has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5700
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 33 of 70 (798542)
02-03-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by dwise1
02-03-2017 1:24 AM


Re: A little bit hairy
I have been dealing with them since late '90's online. I first dealt with them in college in the early '80's. I went to a Catholic college and there were a fair bit of students that had been fed fundie doctrine, mostly at by parish priests and lay people. The nuns and priests at the college were the most scientifically literate people I have ever known.

In the 12 years I have been here, numerous times I have seen the bible school kid fulfilling class requirements by engaging and attacking atheists. It is old, boring and offensive.

Micah is obviously inexperienced, or a good troll, but his initial OP was more of the same. In 2017 we still have people that equate science with atheism. I guess the Trumpster fire we have is inevitable.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by dwise1, posted 02-03-2017 1:24 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 34 of 70 (798547)
02-03-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Micah8294
02-01-2017 4:55 PM


Micah8294 writes:

I've been born into a Christian household and raised a Christian. So that "God exists in the back of my head" feeling will never go away I'm sure of it, I will always think someone is watching.


Christianity is a major source of atheism.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Micah8294, posted 02-01-2017 4:55 PM Micah8294 has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1214
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 35 of 70 (798553)
02-03-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Coyote
02-02-2017 7:26 PM


Caffeine--You said essentially the same thing I did.

If you think so, then I expressed myself poorly, since these seem like different ideas to me.

You suggested that there was no selection for lighter skin because insolation was so low that this would not have helped with vitamin D production anyway.

I suggested that there was no selection for lighter skin since vitamin D requirements were already met by diet.

They're not mutually exclusive, but they're not the same either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Coyote, posted 02-02-2017 7:26 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 36 of 70 (798554)
02-03-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by caffeine
02-03-2017 11:44 AM


You suggested that there was no selection for lighter skin because insolation was so low that this would not have helped with vitamin D production anyway.

I suggested that there was no selection for lighter skin since vitamin D requirements were already met by diet.

We're both saying the same things.

Lighter skin can provide Vitamin D only to a certain latitude, and beyond that point it must come from diet. For groups like the Eskimo there would be no selection pressure for lighter skin.

My quip about nude sunbathing not being popular among the Eskimos was just that--a quip.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by caffeine, posted 02-03-2017 11:44 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9321
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 37 of 70 (798673)
02-04-2017 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by CRR
02-03-2017 4:44 AM


I think Eskimos have relatively dark skin because they are derived from the same stock as American Indians. Sunlight and diet are probably minor factors. I.e founder effect.

And the skin color for the American Indians?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by CRR, posted 02-03-2017 4:44 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by CRR, posted 02-05-2017 1:45 AM NoNukes has responded

    
CRR
Member
Posts: 71
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 38 of 70 (798717)
02-05-2017 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by NoNukes
02-04-2017 2:30 PM


@NoNukes.
The same stock as Amer-indians means the ancestors of both probably migrated from Asia across the Bering Strait land bridge.

The American Indian skin colour was traditionally called red, but that was relative to other skin colours and not fire engine red. We are all part of a continuum of skin colour and it's not a black and white issue in most cases.

White Europeans still have a variation in skin colour but they are typically a much lighter shade than "red' Amer-indians or "black" Africans. Truly, colour is only skin deep.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2017 2:30 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Diomedes, posted 02-07-2017 3:10 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 45 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2017 5:02 AM CRR has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2687
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 39 of 70 (799130)
02-07-2017 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Micah8294
02-01-2017 5:15 PM


Micah, you want to debate. We want to oblige you.
Yes, I am looking for a debate. But as far as my question goes it's pretty reasonably been anwered.
I just think that human interaction and dialogue helps me understand better than a Google search. That's the whole reason I joined the forum.

And yet we haven't heard anything from you for six days, nearly a week. For that matter, none of your three responses said anything about our responses to your question except your final "Thank you all for your answers". No reaction, no further questions, no request for clarification on anything. It is as if you actually had absolutely no interest in your question nor in answers to your question. Curious.

And then given your love of Hovind, I presented you with two of Hovind's claims, copied verbatim, and asked what you thought of them. You completely ignored them. Quite curious.

There is a lot that we'd like to discuss with you. You claim to be "looking for a debate." I would very much rather have a discussion, but if all you want to do is argue then that's your choice and I will engage with you.

We offer you want you say you want, yet you are suddenly completely disinterested. Curiouser and curiouser.

So let's talk.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Micah8294, posted 02-01-2017 5:15 PM Micah8294 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Theodoric, posted 02-07-2017 4:08 PM dwise1 has responded

    
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 568
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 40 of 70 (799131)
02-07-2017 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by CRR
02-05-2017 1:45 AM


White Europeans still have a variation in skin colour but they are typically a much lighter shade than "red' Amer-indians or "black" Africans. Truly, colour is only skin deep.

Exactly true. For people like myself who are of Greek heritage, we are often referred to as 'olive skinned'. While we are classified as 'white', clearly we are a shade darker than those from northern climates like the UK, Ireland or the Scandinavian countries.

And the primary difference is ultimately latitude and climate. Northerly climates are more overcast and colder, which denotes selective pressures would favor skin tones that absorb more light. While those in the Mediterranean areas would evolve to have slightly darker skin since sunlight is more prevalent.

Note that even among darker skinned individuals, there are wide variances as well. Clearly, those in the Indian subcontinent have a different shade versus those in Africa. And parts of Africa likely have variances among their populations as well. Asian countries also have variances as well. People in Japan versus those in Cambodia or Vietnam will have different skin tones.

A photographer in the UK did a nice collage of all the different skin tones she found. See following image:

Also a great example of why racism is so friggen stupid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by CRR, posted 02-05-2017 1:45 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 41 of 70 (799133)
02-07-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Diomedes
02-07-2017 3:10 PM


Also a great example of why racism is so friggen stupid.

Exactly. But it gets worse, as there are quite a few of what are referred to as "classical" racial traits that have similar clines from one extreme to the other, and there is often minimal correlation between those traits and skin color. Geography is a more important determinant than descent in the long run.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Diomedes, posted 02-07-2017 3:10 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5700
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 42 of 70 (799135)
02-07-2017 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by dwise1
02-07-2017 2:53 PM


Re: Micah, you want to debate. We want to oblige you.
I'd like to at least know what kind of grade he got.
I wonder if he is the guy by the same name from Lima, OH, that has(had?)a mime ministry.

https://twitter.com/micahzencho

I think Zencho is supposed to be a cute play on Chosen. I couldn't find any more info on Zencho ministries.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by dwise1, posted 02-07-2017 2:53 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by dwise1, posted 02-08-2017 12:33 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2687
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 43 of 70 (799196)
02-08-2017 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Theodoric
02-07-2017 4:08 PM


Re: Micah, you want to debate. We want to oblige you.
I have to admit that Micah's appearance here certainly smells that way. Which raises a few questions in my mind about those assignments:

  1. Does their teacher coach them on what to ask? I assume he gives them a list of questions to choose from, but does he also warn them what not to post, such as most PRATTs?

  2. Does their teacher also warn them what questions of ours to not answer? Does he warn them against posting PRATTs, knowing full well how false they are? Does he warn them to avoid our own questions?

  3. What is their teacher trying to accomplish with these assignments? On the surface it appears that he is trying to create a new generation of trolls.

One of our greatest problems is that we get next to zero feedback from creationists. That means that virtually everything we know about creationists is what we can observe of their actions, of their behavior. Extremely little of that is at all favorable.

I really want to be able to engage young-earth creationists in some kind of dialog. So far that has proven to be impossible.

I would really like to engage Micah in a discussion. Whether that could possibly happen is entirely up to him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Theodoric, posted 02-07-2017 4:08 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1479
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 44 of 70 (799198)
02-08-2017 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Diomedes
02-07-2017 3:10 PM


Diomedes writes:

Exactly true. For people like myself who are of Greek heritage, we are often referred to as 'olive skinned'.

Australia (a country of which I'm a proud citizen), used to have the White Australia Policy. In the early days only people from Northern Europe were classified as white and could move there.

After WW2, they realised that they really, really needed more people and began to allow immigration from Southern Europe, too. They called and still call those guys Wogs in private (Greeks, Italians, etc.). Off-white, I guess.

It was only from around 1967 that they started allowing people from other continents in. The guys who fought that change in policy presented the argument against it as: Two Wongs don't make a White.

Good old days. Luckily before my time...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Diomedes, posted 02-07-2017 3:10 PM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9321
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 45 of 70 (799212)
02-08-2017 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by CRR
02-05-2017 1:45 AM


The same stock as Amer-indians means the ancestors of both probably migrated from Asia across the Bering Strait land bridge.

My question was regarding the origin of skin colors which are inheritable. Absent some Lamarkian explanation, inheritable traits would come from mutation/selection/drift.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by CRR, posted 02-05-2017 1:45 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by CRR, posted 02-08-2017 6:31 AM NoNukes has responded

    
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