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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Coyote
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Posts: 6014
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1 of 1352 (804229)
04-05-2017 7:07 PM


Davidjay writes:

Coyote, if you want the true history of the Flood, just start a new thread, on it and I shall answer. You can post your billions and trillions of years, and I can post my immensely smaller exact numbers.

Not a problem, just go to Proposed New Topics....

As requested, here is a proposed new topic in which Davidjay can enlighten us on the TRVE history of the Flood.

I'd like to suggest the Humor forum, but probably shouldn't...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by Coyote, posted 04-23-2017 11:58 AM Coyote has not yet responded
 Message 926 by Davidjay, posted 05-28-2017 10:26 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 1352 (804230)
04-05-2017 7:18 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The TRVE history of the Flood... thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3 of 1352 (804231)
04-05-2017 8:56 PM


As I posted in the previous thread:

Coyote writes:

My own archaeological research disproves the global flood ca. 4500 years ago. Research by my colleagues disproves it thousands of times over.

In my research I have continuity of human cultures from before to after the date of the flood, and most importantly I have mitochondrial DNA of the same type extending from before to after that date. If there was such a flood, the earlier mtDNA haplotype would be eliminated, to be replaced by a type from the Middle East.

A few other little details: there is no evidence of the erosional or depositional features that would necessarily associate with such a flood in the area I study.

But if you truly want to see the features left by flood erosion, google "channeled scablands" and look at the images. Some notable examples are from central and eastern Washington:

The nice thing about the flood evidence in Washington is that we can date the events and we know the cause! They occurred between 18,000 and 13,000 years ago, and resulted from formation and breakage of ice dams upstream.

Oh, and this evidence is about three or four times older than the purported global flood. How is it that we see the evidence of those older floods but not evidence of a much larger and much more recent flood?

(Answer: it didn't happen.)

So, don't be claiming that the flood is TRVE history. It is a belief, not a fact.

So, Davidjay, here's your big chance to "prove" the global flood ca. 4500 years ago. But you should be aware that all the mathematical models you can concoct won't overturn the huge amounts of real-world evidence that shows there was no such flood.

Maybe you could also address my archaeological research, cited above--which you ignored on the previous thread?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:03 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:46 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 97 by CRR, posted 04-09-2017 3:28 AM Coyote has responded
 Message 99 by Dredge, posted 04-09-2017 5:29 PM Coyote has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26452
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 1352 (804232)
04-05-2017 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
04-05-2017 8:56 PM


...the huge amounts of real-world evidence that shows there was no such flood.

Proving a negative?

The evidence for the Flood is gargantuan, worldwide, starting with the sedimentary strata that were laid down one on top of another across huge spans of geography, obviously deposited by water, showing very tight contacts between them, razor sharp in many cases. Then there was the amount of time erosion would have had since then to carve various figures out of the deposited sedimentary rock. 4500 years just about exactly the right amount of time to carve the hoodoos and the monuments and the Grand Staircase and so on.

Lots of good evidence there. Against what, fallible artificial dating methods?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 8:56 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 9:06 PM Faith has responded
 Message 9 by jar, posted 04-05-2017 9:26 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 04-06-2017 12:15 AM Faith has responded
 Message 47 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-06-2017 3:17 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1287 by Pollux, posted 07-12-2017 8:57 PM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 5 of 1352 (804233)
04-05-2017 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
04-05-2017 9:03 PM


I started a whole thread some months back for creationists to provide evidence that modern dating methods are somehow inaccurate.

Perhaps you could take your evidence there?

Because you get nowhere just claiming dating methods are "fallible" without evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:11 PM Coyote has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26452
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 1352 (804234)
04-05-2017 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coyote
04-05-2017 9:06 PM


No I can't disprove your methods directly, but since there really is excellent evidence FOR the Flood around the time given in the Bible, to my mind that serves well as evidence against your methods. I find the world to be chock full of evidence of the Flood, wherever one looks, even apart from all the collected specific evidence put out by creationists.

But let's see what David Jay says on the subject.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 9:06 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 9:15 PM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 7 of 1352 (804235)
04-05-2017 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
04-05-2017 9:11 PM


No I can't disprove your methods directly...

Creationists have been trying to disprove radiometric and radiocarbon dating methods for decades with no success.

They've resorted to some rather ingenious scenarios, but none are supported by the evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:24 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26452
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 1352 (804236)
04-05-2017 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coyote
04-05-2017 9:15 PM


From what I've read the creationists have done a pretty good job in some cases but it's too hard to prove something that is all pure reason with no anchor in the real world. I certainly understand why you believe in your methods, but I prefer the observed phenomena that I can point to as something the Flood would account for. I've argued my case too many times to be eager to get into it again, so I'm hoping davidjay will show up and provide his evidence on the subject.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 9:15 PM Coyote has not yet responded

    
jar
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Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 1352 (804237)
04-05-2017 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
04-05-2017 9:03 PM


Still trying to market absurdities.
Faith writes:

The evidence for the Flood is gargantuan, worldwide, starting with the sedimentary strata that were laid down one on top of another across huge spans of geography, obviously deposited by water, showing very tight contacts between them, razor sharp in many cases.

Yes, you have made that assertion many times and yet have never provided any evidence that any of the sedimentary rocks were the result of either of the Biblical flood myths.

That is what is needed Faith.

Faith writes:

Then there was the amount of time erosion would have had since then to carve various figures out of the deposited sedimentary rock. 4500 years just about exactly the right amount of time to carve the hoodoos and the monuments and the Grand Staircase and so on.

Yes, you have made that assertion main times and it is still as silly an assertion as in all the other times you've tried to market it. And of course, you have never offered any evidence to support such nonsense.

And often it is really easy to prove a negative. When someone claims to have shot and hit a target but there is no hole in the target their claim is refuted.

And there is absolute evidence that there has never been a world wide flood during the time humans existed.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26452
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 1352 (804238)
04-05-2017 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
04-05-2017 8:56 PM


aaa, hard to resist:

In my research I have continuity of human cultures from before to after the date of the flood,

I'm sure you have continuity across some swath of time but it can't span the Flood so I don't take your date seriously.

and most importantly I have mitochondrial DNA of the same type extending from before to after that date. If there was such a flood, the earlier mtDNA haplotype would be eliminated, to be replaced by a type from the Middle East.

Again you put all your eggs in the date basket. If your dating is wrong then your evidence against the Flood falls apart.

A few other little details: there is no evidence of the erosional or depositional features that would necessarily associate with such a flood in the area I study.

That could be because you have no idea what actual features would be evidence for the Flood, but perhaps in your area of study they aren't particularly obvious anyway.

But if you truly want to see the features left by flood erosion, google "channeled scablands" and look at the images. Some notable examples are from central and eastern Washington:

The scablands are extremely good evidence for a flood that occurred from a very large body of standing water AFTER the Flood, the water having been left after all the rest of the Flood waters had drained away. The Flood itself is most likely responsible for the huge flat plateaus all over the Southwest, which are the surface of sedimentary rock that would have been laid down in the Flood. The receding water would have scoured off those huge plateaus. And in fact in the area of the scablands it looks like that smaller flood cut into a similar plateau that was already there.

The nice thing about the flood evidence in Washington is that we can date the events and we know the cause! They occurred between 18,000 and 13,000 years ago, and resulted from formation and breakage of ice dams upstream.

'
The dates are preposterous but the cause of the flooding makes sense, fitting with what I said about the rapid drainage of a standing body of water left after the Flood. Like all those huge lakes, Missoula, Lahontan and so on.

Oh, and this evidence is about three or four times older than the purported global flood. How is it that we see the evidence of those older floods but not evidence of a much larger and much more recent flood?

Yeah but we know the dating is bogus. The timing of the Flood and the huge subsequent standing lakes, and the ice age effects too, all fit the scablands into the biblical Flood scenario.

(Answer: it didn't happen.)
So, don't be claiming that the flood is TRVE history. It is a belief, not a fact.

Actually it's your dates that are a belief rather than a fact. I wish you could TRY to think outside your dating box just to get a sense of a different way of looking at all this, but you seem to take your belief in the dating methods as fact to the point that you can't even consider a hypothetical? Could you at least try?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 8:56 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 9:57 PM Faith has responded
 Message 56 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-06-2017 7:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 11 of 1352 (804239)
04-05-2017 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
04-05-2017 9:46 PM


Actually it's your dates that are a belief rather than a fact.

Everything in your responses hinges on the dates, but again you offer no evidence -- just belief -- that the dating is inaccurate.

As RAZD has eloquently pointed out in his dating threads, evidence from numerous different fields all supports scientific dating methods.

The simplest of these, for radiocarbon dating, is calibration via tree rings (or glacial varves, corals, or other annular phenomena). This has been done in a number of areas around the world and the results agree -- radiocarbon dating is accurate.

You can disbelieve that all you want, but you have to ignore a huge amount of evidence to do so.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 10:05 PM Coyote has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26452
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 1352 (804240)
04-05-2017 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Coyote
04-05-2017 9:57 PM


The evidence is in the appearance of the phenomena and the reasonableness of the explanation, in this example anyway, there's plenty more in other examples. Nothing I said depends on the dates, but does depend on the order of things. The Flood came first, which left plateaus and canyons after it receded, as well as huge standing lakes during the ice age that followed, and then the breaking of the ice released the lake creating the scablands. It all hangs together. I only need relative dates, hot absolute dates.

Yes there are a few other phenomena that are hard to reconcile with the timing of the Flood, such as the tree rings and the varves but they are overshadowed by the greater evidence FOR the Flood, just as the dating methods are. There are other possible explanations for all those phenomena.

I think the "huge amount of evidence" is on the side of the Flood.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 9:57 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 10:19 PM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 13 of 1352 (804241)
04-05-2017 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
04-05-2017 10:05 PM


If you can't accept evidence there is no point in continuing this discussion.

You must realize that you're just "wishing away" huge amounts of evidence because of your a priori beliefs.

In a scientific discussion that simply isn't done.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 10:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 10:30 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26452
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 1352 (804242)
04-05-2017 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Coyote
04-05-2017 10:19 PM


What I've said IS evidence, abd there's lots more where that came from too. But since "science" to you means your dating methods trump all observation, I'm happy enough to leave you alone with it. Happy debating.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2017 10:19 PM Coyote has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13231
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 15 of 1352 (804243)
04-06-2017 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
04-05-2017 9:03 PM


quote:

The evidence for the Flood is gargantuan, worldwide, starting with the sedimentary strata that were laid down one on top of another across huge spans of geography, obviously deposited by water, showing very tight contacts between them, razor sharp in many cases.

And as we know from discussions here the strata were deposited over a long period of time and are certainly not the result of a single short-term event.

So that claim is false.

quote:

Then there was the amount of time erosion would have had since then to carve various figures out of the deposited sedimentary rock. 4500 years just about exactly the right amount of time to carve the hoodoos and the monuments and the Grand Staircase and so on.

And that's another false claim.

quote:

Lots of good evidence there. Against what, fallible artificial dating methods?

I fail to see how failed attempts to force-fit the evidence to the Flood should be considered evidence FOR the Flood, while multiple dating methods based on genuine evidence, all well-tested should be rejected out of hand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 04-06-2017 1:33 AM PaulK has responded

    
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