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Author Topic:   Israelites match Iran burials (50% DNA from specific time) during the time of Abraham
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 32 (820813)
09-27-2017 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
09-27-2017 5:12 PM


Re: On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
I was saying that there was a strong ancestral element that comes from the east. (as the 1700 BCE burials of Sidon show)

(And I'm not sure we are understanding each other btw)

Next issue.

On the 1 Kings text, the Canaanites lived with the Israelites and even built the Temple. The actual town of Sidon was mentioned. Or the Sidonians themselves (the Bible calls Canaanites Sidonians during the Monarchy period I suppose).

And they lived in Israelite towns in the books known as the Former Prophets.

Joshua (like Gibeon) (like Sidon)

Judges (again)

Samuel (like Gibeon)

Kings (Tyre , Sidon, and the Sidonions)

Ahab had lots of children with the Canaanite princess.

EDIT I was saying that there was a mixing in process. And it would have happened across the Euphrates (on both ends) too. Wandering West Semites (Amorites) would have settled down and been eventually absorbed. But others would have been absorbed by the West Semites.

West Semites or Amorites would have had lots of diverse ancestry in the DNA.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 09-27-2017 5:12 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 12:17 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 17 of 32 (820824)
09-28-2017 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by LamarkNewAge
09-27-2017 5:26 PM


Re: On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
quote:

I was saying that there was a strong ancestral element that comes from the east. (as the 1700 BCE burials of Sidon show)

And how exactly does that connect to Abraham ?

quote:

On the 1 Kings text, the Canaanites lived with the Israelites and even built the Temple. The actual town of Sidon was mentioned. Or the Sidonians themselves (the Bible calls Canaanites Sidonians during the Monarchy period I suppose)

quote:

On the 1 Kings text, the Canaanites lived with the Israelites and even built the Temple. The actual town of Sidon was mentioned. Or the Sidonians themselves (the Bible calls Canaanites Sidonians during the Monarchy period I suppose)

In the 1 Kings text you quoted the Sodonians are among the subjects of Tyre, and are to be employed cutting down trees in the Lebanon, which is under the rule of Tyre. That does not support your strange idea that "Sidonian" is a general term for Canaanites, nor that the Sidonians were living alongside the Israelites.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-27-2017 5:26 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-28-2017 4:29 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 19 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-28-2017 4:40 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 32 (820894)
09-28-2017 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
09-28-2017 12:17 AM


Re: On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
quote:

In the 1 Kings text you quoted the Sodonians are among the subjects of Tyre, and are to be employed cutting down trees in the Lebanon, which is under the rule of Tyre. That does not support your strange idea that "Sidonian" is a general term for Canaanites, nor that the Sidonians were living alongside the Israelites.

Look at what the text says.

quote:

1 Kings 11
New International Version (NIV)

Solomon’s Wives

11 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter—Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the Lord had told the Israelites, “You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods.” Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done.


Also.

You must have stopped reading my post number 14 before you read the Joshua and Judges quotes.

Sidon was the firstborn of Canaan

quote:

Canaan

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

....
Canaan in the Old Testament

The Geography of Canaan

In Numbers 13:29 the Canaanites are described as dwelling "by the sea, and along by the side of the Jordan," i.e. in the lowlands of Palestine. The name was confined to the country West of the Jordan (Nu 33:51; Josh 22:9), and was especially applied to Phoenicia (Isa 23:11; compare Mt 15:22).

Hence, Sidon is called the "firstborn" of Canaan (Gen 10:15, though compare Jdg 3:3), and the Septuagint translates "Canaanites" by "Phoenicians" and "Canaan" by the "land of the Phoenicians" (Ex 16:35; Josh 5:12). Kinakhkhi is used in the same restricted sense in the Tell el-Amarna Letters, but it is also extended so as to include Palestine generally. On the other hand, on the Egyptian monuments Seti I calls a town in the extreme South of Palestine "the city of Pa-Kana'na" or "the Canaan," which Conder identifies with the modern Khurbet Kenan near Hebron.

http://www.religionfacts.com/library/isbe/canaan


https://www.google.com/search?q=septuagint+translated+sid...

Then, in response to my "I was saying that there was a strong ancestral element that comes from the east. (as the 1700 BCE burials of Sidon show)", you asked:

quote:

And how exactly does that connect to Abraham ?

It means that Abraham lived during the time that I think the major "Iranian" migrations also took place. Just before 1700 BCE.

But understand that the scientific interpretation of this Sidon burial matching Iranian burials is interpreted as saying the migration took place around 3000 BCE.

I connect it to the Hurrian migrations that I feel were before the Sidonian burials. (The whole Hurrian issue is controversial because many prominent archaeologists say the major Hurrian arrivals didn't occur until after the Hyksos period ended (that is after 1500 BCE))

I just put a relevant search term into google

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1680&bih=933&q=amenhote...

The first hit ha da good historian talking about 1600-1550 being the period of major Hurrian migrations into Palestine. I would say the evidence places it earlier. (many say they didn't arrive until the 1400s BCE)

https://books.google.com/books?id=C4U0DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT407&l...

Here is one hit by a prominent archaeologist.

quote:

Thurmoses IV, and Amenhotep III, ruled ...

The Manasseh Hill Country Survey: Volume 3: From Nahal ‘Iron to ...

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=9004312307

Adam Zertal Z"l, ýNivi Mirkam Z"l, ýShay Bar - 2016 - ýReligion
Two of the letters were sent by Amenhotep, an Egyptian functionary from Gaza, to the ruler of Ta'anach, requesting chariots, soldiers, captives, and taxes. ... the names are Western Semitic and 20 % are Indo-European or Hurrian-Anatolian. ... 15th century: of Thutmosis III, the el-Amarna letters (EA 248), and in Shishak's list.


Anyway the link in my OP has about 51% of Phoenician (Sidonian!) blood being Iranian type blood from 4500 BCE until 1500 BCE. (the possible date ranges based on DNA science)

About 10% more from somewhere between 1700 and 200 BCE. I would place that 10% as reflecting a period around the Persian Period and Greco-Roman period.

I assume that most scientists would say that the Hurrian arrivals from around circa 1500 BCE represent the 1700-100 BCE DNA interpretation (the 10%).

They would say that the 1700 Sidonian burials predated the Hurrian arrival.

I would question if 1700 BCE burial is even an accurate date. It could be later. (How did they get that date for the burials anyway? Maybe it could actually be 1500-1600 BCE and not 1700 BCE)

But Abraham lived in the mixed area according to the Bible (He wandered in the Euphrates area then he went off to Palestine and he was from Mesopotamia). He was a wandering Syrian and the Hurrians were present there in Syria. He could have been mixed as the larger culture was.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 12:17 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 4:43 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 32 (820896)
09-28-2017 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
09-28-2017 12:17 AM


Another Sidonian post.
quote:

In the 1 Kings text you quoted the Sodonians are among the subjects of Tyre, and are to be employed cutting down trees in the Lebanon, which is under the rule of Tyre. That does not support your strange idea that "Sidonian" is a general term for Canaanites, nor that the Sidonians were living alongside the Israelites.

I found a link that took my interpretation of 1 Kings 5

quote:

The names Tyre and Sidon were famous in the ancient Near East. They are also important cities in the Old and New Testaments. Both are now located in Lebanon, with Tyre 20 mi south of Sidon and only 12 mi north of the Israel-Lebanon border. Today each is just a shadow of their former selves.

Sidon, called Saida today (Arabic for “fishing”), was named after the firstborn son of Canaan (Gn 10:15) and probably settled by his descendants. The northern border of ancient Canaan extended to Sidon (Gn 10:19). Later, Jacob spoke of it as the boundary of Zebulun (Gn 49:13) and Joshua included it as part of the land promised to Israel (Jos 13:6). Sidon was included in the inheritance of Asher, on its northern boundary (Jos 19:28), but it was not taken by that tribe in conquest (Jgs 1:31, 3:3). Settled from the beginning as a port city, Sidon was built on a promontory with a nearby offshore island that sheltered the harbor from storms.

Twenty mi south of Sidon, in the middle of a coastal plain, Tyre (called Sour in Arabic today) was constructed on a rock island a few hundred yards out into the Mediterranean (Ward 1997:247). In fact, the city took its name from this rock island. Tyre comes from the Semetic sr (Hebrew Sor, Arabic Sur, Babylonian Surru, Egyptian Dr,) meaning rock.

Located at the foot of some of the Lebanese mountain’s southwestern ridges and near the gorge of the ancient Leontes River (the modern Litani), the rich and well-watered plain became the fortified island’s primary source or food, water, wood and other living essentials. Apparently the island was fortified first and called Tyre, while the coastal city directly opposite was settled later. It was originally called Ushu in cuneiform texts (Ward 1997:247) and later Palaetyrus (“old Tyre”) in Greek texts (Jidejian 1996:19).

The Canaanites

Historical and archaeological evidence indicate both cities were settled by the early second millennium BC and were important seaports long before the Israelites settled in Canaan. Yet, while Sidon was mentioned many times during the Canaanite and early Israelite periods in the Bible, Tyre first appeared as part of Asher’s western boundary (Jos 19:29). Specifically called a “fortified city” in this passage, it was noted as a significant landmark. Tyre does not appear again in the Bible until Hiram, king of Tyre, sends cedar, carpenters, and masons to build David’s house (2 Sm 5:11).

While both cities are mentioned in a number of second millennium BC extra-Biblical documents, the most interesting accounts come from the Amarna Letters. Actual letters from the kings of both cities were found among the Amarna Letters (ca. 1350 BC). Zimrida, king of Sidon wrote one (EA [El Amarna] 144, ) or maybe two (EA 145) of the Amarna Letters. Abi-Milki, king of Tyre, sent ten letters to the Egyptian Pharaoh (EA 146–155).

Although the dates of Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey are still in dispute, only Sidon and Sidonians are mentioned (17 times: Iliad 6.290–91; 23.743-44; Odyssey 4.83, 84, 618; 13.272, 285; 14.288, 291; 15.118, 415, 417, 419, 425, 473). Yet the failure to mention either Tyre or Tyrians may not be significant. At least some of Homer’s usage appears to relate the term Sidonian with Phoenicians in general (see also 1 Kgs 5:6; Jidejian 1996:60). It would seem that during the second millennium BC, Sidon was the pre-eminent of the two port cities. It also appears, during the first millennium BC, that Tyre eclipsed Sidon.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/...es-Of-Tyre-And-Sidon.aspx


https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=sidon+sidonians...

The article is much longer than what I quoted and gets around to the Israelite period.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 12:17 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 20 of 32 (820897)
09-28-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by LamarkNewAge
09-28-2017 4:29 PM


Re: On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
quote:

Look at what the text says.

I did. That's how I know what it said. And quoting 1 Kings 11 doesn't change what 1 Kings 5 says.

quote:

It means that Abraham lived during the time that I think the major "Iranian" migrations also took place. Just before 1700 BCE.

We have no good evidence of when Abraham is supposed to have lived, but Jewish tradition puts it 100 years earlier.

Your dates are all over the place anyway, and all you've got are vague associations. So, nothing of consequence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-28-2017 4:29 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-28-2017 4:53 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 23 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-28-2017 6:11 PM PaulK has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 32 (820898)
09-28-2017 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by PaulK
09-28-2017 4:43 PM


Re: On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
I said this:
quote:

Look at what the text says.

You said this

quote:

I did. That's how I know what it said. And quoting 1 Kings 11 doesn't change what 1 Kings 5 says.

Aren't we generally arguing over whether Canaanites lived among the Israelites (and then the issue is the two having kids together)?

They lived together and married.

quote:

Judges 1:27-35
New International Version (NIV)
27 But Manasseh did not drive out the people of Beth Shan or Taanach or Dor or Ibleam or Megiddo and their surrounding settlements, for the Canaanites were determined to live in that land. 28 When Israel became strong, they pressed the Canaanites into forced labor but never drove them out completely. 29 Nor did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites living in Gezer, but the Canaanites continued to live there among them. 30 Neither did Zebulun drive out the Canaanites living in Kitron or Nahalol, so these Canaanites lived among them, but Zebulun did subject them to forced labor. 31 Nor did Asher drive out those living in Akko or Sidon or Ahlab or Akzib or Helbah or Aphek or Rehob. 32 The Asherites lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land because they did not drive them out. 33 Neither did Naphtali drive out those living in Beth Shemesh or Beth Anath; but the Naphtalites too lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land, and those living in Beth Shemesh and Beth Anath became forced laborers for them. 34 The Amorites confined the Danites to the hill country, not allowing them to come down into the plain. 35 And the Amorites were determined also to hold out in Mount Heres, Aijalon and Shaalbim, but when the power of the tribes of Joseph increased, they too were pressed into forced labor.

Solomon had Sidonian wives.

Ahab did too.

Saul had kids with Baal as part of their name.

Round out the United Monarchy with David taking the wife of a Hittite.

quote:

We have no good evidence of when Abraham is supposed to have lived, but Jewish tradition puts it 100 years earlier.

Your dates are all over the place anyway, and all you've got are vague associations. So, nothing of consequence.


The Patriarchs married Syrians and the household Idol of Laban seems to match up well with Hurrian parallels(?).

They were at least influenced by the culture around them.

They could have been mixed.Or at least descended from ancestors that mixed with Hurrian or Iranian types.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 4:43 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 4:56 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 22 of 32 (820899)
09-28-2017 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by LamarkNewAge
09-28-2017 4:53 PM


Re: On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
quote:

Aren't we generally arguing over whether Canaanites lived among the Israelites (and then the issue is the two having kids together)?

We're arguing over whether Sidon should be counted as part of Israel. Kings marrying foreign princesses hardly counts.

And 1 Kings 5 clearly identified the Sidonians as subjects of Tyre, living in the Lebanon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-28-2017 4:53 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-06-2017 4:40 PM PaulK has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 32 (820905)
09-28-2017 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by PaulK
09-28-2017 4:43 PM


Re: On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
I said this

quote:

It means that Abraham lived during the time that I think the major "Iranian" migrations also took place. Just before 1700 BCE.

You said this

quote:

We have no good evidence of when Abraham is supposed to have lived, but Jewish tradition puts it 100 years earlier.

Your dates are all over the place anyway, and all you've got are vague associations. So, nothing of consequence.


I was just fishing around on google and I seem to have found a good recent book online (it is a violation of copyright for sure, but read this fine book while you can). Introduction to the Hebrew Bible by J J Collins has a lot of text (I have the book and the software CD that came with it and it is like 600 pages)on a website.

I found this book by chance after I put "laban household idol hurrian parallel nuzi text" into google and found the book on page 8.

Notice that this decade old book has the Hyksos arriving around 1750 BCE so that shows how the dates are floating (DNA clock dates are the ones with the wildest range, but radio carbon and archaeological interpretations have a lot of issues too)

Notice that it talks about a possible connection to the Patriarchal stories.

Mentions the Syrian connection to the Hyksos.

quote:

Introduction to the Hebrew Bible
J. J. Collins

p.102
Many scholars have tried to find a kernel of history in the Joseph story. There was a time (c. 1750–1550 b.c.e.) when people from Syria, known as the Hyksos, ruled Egypt. The main account of these people is found in the Hellenistic Egyptian historian Manetho, who also calls them “Shepherds.” Manetho claims that some of the Hyksos settled in Jerusalem when they were expelled from Egypt. We shall consider the story further in connection with the exodus. The career of Joseph, however, bears little resemblance to anything we know of Hyksos rule in Egypt. The Hyksos were a hostile invading force; Joseph is throughout the faithful servant of Pharaoh, and his people settle peacefully in Goshen, away from the settlements of the native Egyptians, “because all shepherds are abhorrent to the Egyptians” (46:34*. Any historical reminiscences in this story are incidental.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/...cik/texts/jjCollinsP02.html


The Exodus section talks about the Hittite treaties matching the Torah treaties.

quote:

p.108ff
As we have seen in the introductory chapter, the internal chronology of the Bible suggests a date about 1445 b.c.e. for the exodus. There is little evidence, however, that would enable us to corroborate the biblical account by relating it other sources. The exodus, as reported in the Bible, is not attested in any ancient nonbiblical source. While it might be argued that the escape of the Israelites was inconsequential for the Egyptians, and therefore not recorded, in fact the Egyptians kept tight control over their eastern border and kept careful records. If a large group of Israelites had departed, we should expect some mention of it. For an Egyptian account of the origin of Israel, however, we have to wait until the Hellenistic era, when a priest named Manetho wrote a history of Egypt in Greek. Manetho claimed that Jerusalem was built “in the land now called Judea” by the Hyksos, after they were expelled from Egypt. (On the Hyksos see chapter 1 above. They were people of Syrian origin who ruled Egypt for a time and were driven out of Egypt c. 1530 b.c.e.) He goes on to tell a more elaborate tale about an attempt to expel lepers from Egypt. Some eighty thousand of these, we are told, including some learned priests, were assembled and set to work in stone quarries. They rebelled, however, under the leadership of one Osarseph, who summoned the Hyksos from Jerusalem to his aid. They returned and proceeded to commit various outrages and blasphemies in Egypt, but were eventually driven out. Osarseph, we are told, was also called Moses. The account is preserved by the Jewish historian Josephus in Against Apion 1.228–52. Manetho probably did not invent this story. Another, slightly earlier, Hellenistic writer, Hecataeus of Abdera, also says that Jerusalem was built by people, led by Moses, who had been driven out of Egypt. There was a strong folk memory in Egypt of the Hyksos as the hated foreigners from Asia who had once ruled the country. But the idea that Jerusalem had been built by these people is probably a late guess: it provided Egyptians with an explanation of the origin of the strange people just beyond their borders. It is unlikely that Manetho had any reliable tradition about the origin of Israel.

The biblical account itself offers few specific details that might be corroborated by external evidence. The pharaoh is never named: he remains simply “the king” or “Pharaoh” like a character in a folktale. The most specific references in the biblical text are found in Exodus 1, where we are told that a pharaoh “who knew not Joseph” was concerned at the size and power of the Israelites and set them to work building the cities Pithom and Rameses. Rameses is presumably the city of Pi-Ramesse, which was built on the site of the old Hyksos capital of Avaris. It was reoccupied in the time of Ramesses II (1304–1237 b.c.e.). The location of Pithom (Per-Atum) is uncertain. One of the possible sites was also rebuilt in Ramesside times. Because of this, most scholars have favored a date around 1250 b.c.e. for the exodus. All we can really say, however, is that the biblical [Page 109] account was written at some time after the building of Pi-Ramesse and Per-Atum, and possibly that the author was aware of some tradition associating Semitic laborers with these sites. If the story of the exodus has any historical basis, then the thirteenth century b.c.e. provides the most plausible backdrop.
....

Treaty and Covenant

Much light has been thrown on the structure of the Sinai covenant by analogies with ancient Near Eastern treaties. A large corpus of such treaties, dating over a span of more than a thousand years, has come to light during the last century. Two clusters of these treaties are especially important: a group of Hittite treaties from the period 1500 to 1200 b.c.e. and a group of Assyrian treaties from the eighth century. These treaties are called vassal or suzerainty treaties. They are not made between equal partners, but involve the submission of one party (the vassal) to the other (the suzerain). While the individual treaties differ from each other in various ways, certain elements remain typical across the centuries.

[Page 122] The typical pattern in the Hittite treaties is as follows:

1. The preamble, in which the suzerain identifies himself (“I am Mursilis, the Sun, King of Hatti”).

2. The historical prologue, or history that led up to the making of the treaty. In one such treaty the Hittite king Mursilis tells how he put his vassal, Duppi-Tessub, on his throne, despite his illness, and forced his brothers and subjects to take an oath of loyalty. Another recalls how the Hittites had conquered the land of Wilusa, and how it had never rebelled after that (ANET 203–5).

3. The stipulations, requirements, or terms of the treaty. These are often couched in highly personal terms. Hittite treaties demand that the subjects “protect the Sun [the Hittite king] as a friend” and report any “unfriendly” words that they hear about him. An Assyrian king, Esarhaddon, demands loyalty to his son Ashurbanipal by telling his subjects “you will love as yourselves Ashurbanipal.” It is essential to these treaties that the vassal “recognize no other lord” or not turn his eyes to anyone else.

4. There is provision for the deposition or display of the text of the treaty, and sometimes for its periodic recitation.

5. There is a list of witnesses, consisting of the gods before whom the treaty oath is sworn.

6. Finally, there is a list of curses and blessings that indicate the consequences of observing or breaking the treaty.

The essential logic of the treaty is found in the second, third, and sixth elements. The heart of the treaty lies in the stipulations. These are supported by the recollection of the sequence of events that led up to the making of the treaty and by the prospect of blessings or curses to follow. The historical prologue is a distinctive feature of the Hittite treaties. The Assyrian treaties are distinguished by the prominence of the curses.

All the elements of this treaty form are paralleled in the Hebrew Bible, but they are scattered in various books. The most complete parallels are found in Deuteronomy, which also parallels the Assyrian treaties in matters of detail, as we shall see later in chapter 8. In the case of Exodus, the beginning of chapter 20 (“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt”) combines the introductory preamble with a very brief historical prologue (in a sense, the whole story of the exodus is the historical prologue). The stipulations are amply represented by the Ten Commandments and other laws. Exodus, however, does not address the deposition of the document, the witnesses, or the curses and blessings. (All these elements are found in Deuteronomy.) It does not appear, then, that the Sinai revelation in Exodus follows the full form of the vassal treaties, although it resembles them in some respects.

[Page 123] The parallels with the Hittite treaties have been especially controversial, since they have potential implications for the date at which the covenant was conceived. The Hittites lived in Asia Minor, in what is now eastern Turkey. They were active in the area of Syria only in the Late Bronze Age (c. 1500–1200 b.c.e.), precisely the time in which Israel is thought to have emerged. At that time they challenged Egypt for control of this region. If it could be shown that the Israelite conception of the covenant was modeled specifically on the Hittite treaties, then it would follow that the covenant was indeed a very early element in the religion of Israel. This argument was especially attractive to American scholars of the Albright school. Against this, the tradition of German scholarship viewed the covenant as a late development, fully articulated only in Deuteronomy and later writings.


Example of Hittite treaty

quote:

When I, the Sun, sought after you in accordance with your father’s word and put you in your father’s place, I took you in oath for the king of the Hatti land, and for my sons and grandsons, So honor the oath (of loyalty) to the king and the king’s kin! And I the king will be loyal toward you, Duppi-Tessub. When you take a wife, and when you beget an heir, he shall be king in the Amurru land likewise. And just as I shall be loyal toward you, even so shall I be loyal toward your son. But you, Duppi-Tessub, remain loyal toward the king of the Hatti land, my sons (and) my grandsons forever! The tribute which was imposed upon your grandfather and your father—they presented 300 shekels of good, refined first-class gold weighed with standard weights—you shall present them likewise. Do not turn your eyes to anyone else! Your fathers presented tribute to Egypt; you [shall not do that!]

(Treaty between Hittite king Mursilis and Duppi-Tessub of Amurru, trans. A. Goetze, ANET, 204).


back to Collins text

quote:

The argument for Hittite influence rests primarily on the role of history in both Hittite and Israelite texts. Nothing is more characteristic of the Hebrew Bible than the repeated summaries of “salvation history.” The primary examples of these summaries, however, are found in Deuteronomy and Deuteronomic texts (see, for example, Deut 6:21–25*; 26:5–9*; Josh 24:2–13* that are no earlier than the late seventh century b.c.e. Moreover, Deuteronomy has several clear parallels with Assyrian treaties of the eighth century b.c.e. It is possible that Israel developed its interest in the recitation of history independently of the Hittite treaties, and that the similarity in this respect is coincidental. At stake here is the choice between two very different views of the development of Israelite religion. On the account found in the Bible itself, the law was revealed to Moses [Page 124] at the beginning of Israel’s history, in the course of the exodus from Egypt. Later generations of Israelites fell away from this Mosaic revelation, but it was recovered at the time of the Deuteronomic reform and became the basis for Second Temple Judaism. On the other view, which is held by many scholars, especially in the German tradition, the exodus was originally celebrated in itself as proof of God’s election of Israel. Later, the prophets argued that election should entail responsibility, and this eventually led to the linking of exodus and law, and the idea that God had made a conditional covenant with Israel. The choice between these two views of Israelite religion will make a difference in our reading of the prophetic books, where the issue is whether the prophets were appealing to an old tradition or were innovators in trying to focus the religion on ethical issues.

The treaty analogies throw some light on the Sinai covenant in any case. The demand for exclusive allegiance in Exod 20:3*, “you shall have no other gods before me,” is directly comparable to the demands that Hittite and Assyrian sovereigns made on their subjects. Also, the link between exodus and Sinai in the existing text of Exodus is clear. The Israelites are obligated to obey the law because of what God has done for them in bringing them out of Egypt. The goal of liberation is not individual autonomy but a society regulated by the law revealed to Moses. The treaty analogies serve to underline the political and social character of biblical religion. The parallels between Exodus and the Hittite treaties are not so close, however, as to guarantee that this understanding of the relation between history and law was present already in the time of Moses, or in the beginnings of Israelite history.


Amurru was the Amorite Kingdom.

quote:

Amurru was an Amorite kingdom established c. 2000 BC,[1] in a region spanning present-day western and north-western Syria and northern Lebanon [2][3][4]

The first documented leader of Amurru was Abdi-Ashirta, under whose leadership Amurru was part of the Egyptian empire. His son Aziru made contact with the Hittite king Suppiluliuma I, and eventually defected to the Hittites.

The Amurru kingdom was destroyed by the Sea Peoples around 1200 B.C.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amurru_kingdom


And Hurrians lived among them.

Ever hear of the story of Idrimi of Alalakh?

quote:

Idrimi was the king of Alalakh in the 15th century BC (c. 1460–1400 BC). He was a Hurrianised son of Ilim-Ilimma I the king of Halab, now Aleppo, who had possibly been deposed by the new regional master, Barattarna or Parshatatar, king of the Mitanni. Nevertheless, he succeeded in gaining the throne of Alalakh with the assistance of a group known as the Habiru.[1] Idrimi founded the kingdom of Mukish and ruled from Alalakh as a vassal to the Mitanni state. He also invaded the Hittite territories to the north, resulting in a treaty with the country Kizzuwatna. Idrimi is known from an inscription on a statue found at Alalakh by Leonard Woolley in the 1930s and 1940s, revealing new insights about the history of Syria in the mid-second millennium
....
Sources of Idrimi[edit]

All three sources were discovered by British archaeologist Leonard Woolley within the Level IV (Late Bronze Age in the mid-15th century BC) archives of the Alalakh palace and come from his collection at the British Museum.

Statue text[edit]

A rough Akkadian autobiographical inscription on the Statue of Idrimi's base found at Alalakh within a pit of a Level 1 temple at the site of Tell Atchana (Alalakh) in northern Syria (ca. 1200) records Idrimi's vicissitudes.[3] The first part of the inscription revealed Idrimi's circumstances fleeing from Aleppo. The translated inscription, according to author Amélie Kuhrt, stated: "I am Idrimi, the son of Ilimilimma, servant of Teshub,[4] Hepat,[5] and Shaushga,[6] the lady of Alalakh, my mistress. In Aleppo, in the house of my fathers, a crime had occurred and we fled. The Lords of Emar were descended from the sisters of my mother, so we settled in Emar. My brothers, who were older than me, also lived with me..."[7] After his family had been forced to flee to Emar, with his mother's people, he realized that he wouldn't wield real power in Emar, saying "...but he that is with the people of Emar, is a slave." As a result, He left his family and brothers, took his horse, chariot, and squire, went into the desert, and joined the "Hapiru people" in "Ammija (Amiya) in the land of Canaan", where other refugees from Aleppo ("the people from Halab, people from the land Mukish [dominated by Alalakh], people from the land of Nihi [near the Orontes River in Syria], and people of the land Amae (possibly between Aleppo and Apamea[clarification needed]) recognized him as the "son of their overlord" and "gathered around him."[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idrimi


Read more of this fascinating story.

https://www.google.com/search?q=alalah++hurrian+idrimi&oq...

https://www.google.com/search?q=alakah++hurrian+idrimi&oq...

I see lots of evidence of people living among and traveling around each other.

But The Hurrians were among the mostly Semitic Hyksos and the same Hyksoss seem to have come from Syria.

I have suggested that Indo Iranians that had myths similar to the Vedas could have brought the stories to Mesopotamia, Palestine, and Greece before 1500 BCE.

The book I quoted earlier (by Lewis Hopfe) said that the Iranians went both to the east (India) and west (Palestine) while those who stayed in Iran became the authors of the Gathas.

The Greek Hellhound (in Hades), Indian Yama (in the Vedas!), and Persian Yima could be explained thusly. (the author doesn't mention these texts however)

But the author said that there are two views on the dates of the Vedas. The more common view places their composition after the Indo Aryan arrival into India after 1700 BCE, specifically the dates for the beginning of the composition are 1500 BCE while they were finished 400 BCE.

Another view places the beginning composition BEFORE the arrival into India (from Iran) and around 2000 BCE and then the final touches were about 600 AD.

The primeval dragon (which the amazing scholar J J Collins talks about in his Hebrew Bible book, but makes no mention of India) might have come from Iran!

Regardless of whether it came from Iran or India, it is more evidence of an Abraham that might have been part Iranian/Hurrian in ancestry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 4:43 PM PaulK has responded

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 Message 24 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2017 12:16 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 13368
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Message 24 of 32 (820917)
09-29-2017 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by LamarkNewAge
09-28-2017 6:11 PM


Re: On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
Or to put it much more shortly you still have nothing but speculation.
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LamarkNewAge
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Message 25 of 32 (820973)
09-29-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by PaulK
09-29-2017 12:16 AM


As for "speculation" - look at the Iranian connection.
First understand that we have ancient Iranian burials from which we can get a DNA sample.

The Iranian burial remains have been shown to have about half of the same DNA type that was in ancient Palestinians (from 1700 B.C. on for sure).

That is an Iranian connection.

Now look at the Indian Hindu history.

quote:

RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD
FOURTH EDITION
Lewis M. Hopfe
1988

p.84

The term Aryan is a Sanskrit word that means "the noble ones" ; this word was applied to a group of migrants who moved into the Indus valley in the second millennium B.C. from the regions of Persia. The Aryans are believed to have been the people who first tamed horses on a wide scale and used them to pull war chariots. They were related to the Hyksos people who INVADED Egypt in the second millennium B.C. and ruled it for two hundred years. ...The Aryans who did not migrate into India became the founders of Zoroastrianism. There are many similarities between the religion revealed in the Indian Vedic literature and the Gathas of Zoroastrianism. These same people later founded the Persian Empire, which ruled the Middle East from the sixth to the fourth centuries B.C.
....
During the period between 1750 and 1200 B.C. the Aryans came in migratory waves into the Indus valley

p.87

The Vedas were developed as the Aryans came into India, settled there, and mingled their religion with that of the native peoples. There is dispute over the exact period in which the Vedas were written. Some scholars believe that the earliest of the Vedic hymns may have developed prior to the coming of the Aryans, before 2000 B.C. ... Like much other ancient religious literature, there is no way of knowing the exact time of the origin and development of these books. Undoubtedly they were first composed and transmitted orally...
....

p.88

The mantra and Brahmana sections are considered to be the oldest material in the Vedas, with the Aranyakas and the Upanishads having been added later.


They came from Persia (perhaps they indeed came from there, but Indians could have been native to India and still have their myths travel across Iran and into the Middle East via the mass populations movements from Iran).

Hindus.

I quoted the primeval dragon story from book 4.

quote:

Rigveda is one of the oldest extant texts in any Indo-European language.[13] Philological and linguistic evidence indicate that the Rigveda was composed in the north-western region of the Indian subcontinent, most likely between c. 1500 and 1200 BC,[14][15][16] though a wider approximation of c. 1700–1100 BC has also been given.[17][18][note 1] The initial codification of the Rigveda took place during the early Kuru kingdom (c. 1200 – c. 900 BCE).

Text

Organization

The Rigveda is not a book,
but a library and a literature.

—E Vernon Arnold, Cambridge University[24]

Mandala

The text is organized in 10 books, known as Mandalas, of varying age and length.[25]

The "family books", mandalas 2–7, are the oldest part of the Rigveda and the shortest books; they are arranged by length (decreasing[26][27] length of hymns per book) and account for 38% of the text.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda


Mandala 4 is among the oldest.

I quoted it above (message 7).

The Hyksos were mixed in with Hurrians and arrived in Palestine before the (Mesopotamian) Kassite dynasty dragged back the statue of Marduk. It is possible that Enuma Elish was composed after the return of the Marduk statue.

We could have an explanation for the parallel development of the primal dragon among both the Mesopotamians and Canaanites (which in turn was also an Israelite story).

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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Message 26 of 32 (820987)
09-29-2017 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by LamarkNewAge
09-29-2017 3:07 PM


Re: As for "speculation" - look at the Iranian connection.
Can you reference any peer-reviewed papers on the subject, particularly ones that leave out all that religious stuff?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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LamarkNewAge
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Message 27 of 32 (821391)
10-06-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Coyote
09-29-2017 6:16 PM


Re: As for "speculation" - look at the Iranian connection.
quote:

Can you reference any peer-reviewed papers on the subject, particularly ones that leave out all that religious stuff?

On which issue specifically?

(Not saying I can)


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LamarkNewAge
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Message 28 of 32 (821393)
10-06-2017 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by PaulK
09-28-2017 4:56 PM


PaulK commentary in posts 17,20, and 22 and my reply
I will quote you, PaulK, in the three posts combined.
quote:

In the 1 Kings text you quoted the Sodonians are among the subjects of Tyre, and are to be employed cutting down trees in the Lebanon, which is under the rule of Tyre. That does not support your strange idea that "Sidonian" is a general term for Canaanites, nor that the Sidonians were living alongside the Israelites.
....

I did. That's how I know what it said. And quoting 1 Kings 11 doesn't change what 1 Kings 5 says.

....

We're arguing over whether Sidon should be counted as part of Israel. Kings marrying foreign princesses hardly counts.

And 1 Kings 5 clearly identified the Sidonians as subjects of Tyre, living in the Lebanon.


My main concern was that the Hurrians (who indeed included worshippers of Mithra and Varuna, despite those devas not generally being included in their religion according to most historical treatments) were present in Jerusalem and were a major element of the pre Israelite "Canaanite" population.

I then was concerned about the Canaanite population at large.

I was then interested in the Post monarchy Israelites mixing in with the Canaanites (which had a lot of Hurrian blood).

Here is a good fundamentalist resource to make my point.

I changed the format to make it simpler to read, but al the text is there.

quote:

Naves Compact Topical Bible
ZONDERVAN PUBLISHING HOUSE
Academic and Professional Books
Grand Rapids, Michigan
A Division of HarperCollins Publisher
Copyright 1972 by the Zondervan Corporation

p.239.

Jebusites.

One of the tribes of Canaan (De 7:1).

Land of, given to Abraham and his descendants (Ge 15:21; Ex 3:8,17; 23:23,24; De 20:17; Ex33:2; 34:10,11)

Conquered by Joshua (Jos 10-12; and 24:11); by David (2 Sa 5:6-9).

Jerusalem within the territory of (Jos 18:28).

Not exterminated, but intermarry with the Israelites (J'g 3:5,6; Ezr 9:1,2; 10:18-44)

Pay tribute to Solomon (1 Ki 9:20,21).


The Hurrians are known to have been leaders of Jerusalem (based on names in the Biblical and non biblical sources)

From Wikipedia

quote:

Ethnic origin[edit]

The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) contains the only surviving ancient text known to use the term Jebusite to describe the pre-Israelite inhabitants of Jerusalem; according to the Table of Nations at Genesis 10, the Jebusites are identified as a Canaanite tribe, which is listed in third place among the Canaanite groups, between the biblical Hittites and the Amorites. Prior to modern archaeological studies, most biblical scholars held the opinion that the Jebusites were identical to the Hittites, which continues to be the case, though less so.[13] However, an increasingly popular view, first put forward by Edward Lipinski, professor of Oriental and Slavonic studies at the Catholic University of Leuven, is that the Jebusites were most likely an Amorite tribe; Lipinski identified them with the group referred to as Yabusi'um in a cuneiform letter found in the archive of Mari, Syria.[14] As Lipinski noted, however, it is entirely possible that more than one clan or tribe bore similar names, and thus that the Jebusites and Yabusi'um may have been separate people altogether.[15]

In the Amarna letters, mention is made that the contemporaneous king of Jerusalem was named Abdi-Heba, which is a theophoric name invoking a Hurrian mother goddess named Hebat. This implies that the Jebusites were Hurrians themselves, were heavily influenced by Hurrian culture, or were dominated by a Hurrian maryannu class (i.e., a Hurrian warrior-class elite).[16] Moreover, the last Jebusite king of Jerusalem, Araunah/Awarna/Arawna (or Ornan),[17] bore a name generally understood as based on the Hurrian honorific ewir.[18]

Richard Hess[19] (1997:34–6) points to four Hurrian names in the Bible's Conquest narrative: Piram (king of Jarmuth) and Hoham (king of Hebron) (Jos 10:3), Sheshai and Talmai, sons of Anak (Jos 15:14) with Hurrian-based names.
....

18.Jump up ^ Communication from Jonathan D. Safren, Dept. of Biblical Studies, Beit Berl College, Israel (Aug 1, 2000.) Gwilym H. Jones, https://books.google.com/books?id=73OtAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA122 Nathan Narratives (JSOT Supplement) p. 122 (Jan 1990)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite


https://books.google.com/books?id=73OtAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA122#v...

quote:

Abdi-Heba

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Abdi-Heba (Abdi-Kheba, Abdi-Hepat, or Abdi-Hebat) was a local chieftain of Jerusalem during the Amarna period (mid-1330s BC). Abdi-Heba's name can be translated as "servant of Hebat", a Hurrian goddess. Whether Abdi-Heba was himself of Hurrian descent is unknown, as is the relationship between the general populace of pre-Israelite Jerusalem (called, several centuries later, Jebusites in the Bible) and the Hurrians. Egyptian documents have him deny he was a ḫazânu and assert he is a soldier (we'w), the implication being he was the son of a local chief sent to Egypt to receive military training there.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdi-Heba


https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=hurrians+amarna...

From the Naves topical dictionary.

quote:

p.209

Horite, Horim, people conquered by Chedorlaomer (Ge 14:6); may be same as Hivites (Ge 34:2; Jos 9:7); thought to be Hurrians, from highlands of Media


Shechem is important and Gen 34 is that story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 4:56 PM PaulK has responded

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 Message 29 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2017 4:43 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 29 of 32 (821395)
10-06-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by LamarkNewAge
10-06-2017 4:40 PM


Re: PaulK commentary in posts 17,20, and 22 and my reply
Until you learn how to make a point instead of rambling on and on reading your posts is both boring and a waste of time. Your habit of misrepresentation doesn't make things any better.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-06-2017 4:40 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

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LamarkNewAge
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Message 30 of 32 (821396)
10-06-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by PaulK
10-06-2017 4:43 PM


Your first retort, way back, was about Sidon having to do with Israel.
You questioned how Sidon related to Israel.

Here was the study text.

quote:

The PCA shows that Sidon_BA clusters with three individuals from Early Bronze Age Jordan (Jordan_BA) found in a cave above the Neolithic site of ‘Ain Ghazal and probably associated with an Early Bronze Age village close to the site.13

This suggests that people from the highly differentiated urban culture on the Levant coast and inland people with different modes of subsistence were nevertheless genetically similar, supporting previous reports that the different cultural groups who inhabited the Levant during the Bronze Age, such as the Ammonites, Moabites, Israelites, and Phoenicians, each achieved their own cultural identities but all shared a common genetic and ethnic root with Canaanites.15

Lazaridis et al.13

reported that Jordan_BA can be modeled as mixture of Neolithic Levant (Levant_N) and Chalcolithic Iran (Iran_ChL). We computed the statistic f4(Levant_N, Sidon_BA; Ancient Eurasian, Chimpanzee) and found that populations from the Caucasus and ancient Iran shared more alleles with Sidon_BA than with Neolithic Levant (Figure 2A and S10pdf icon). We then used qpAdm8 (with parameter allsnps: YES) to test whether Sidon_BA can be modeled as mixture of Levant_N and any other ancient population in the dataset and found good support for the model of Sidon_BA being a mixture of Levant_N (48.4% ± 4.2%) and Iran_ChL (51.6% ± 4.2%) (Figure 2B; Table S3pdf icon).


J. N. Tubb and his book Canaanites was note 15 reference.

Then you were questioning whether Sidonians were ever part of Israel. (If they were able to be conquered, then the Abrahamic Covenant issue in the Bible seems to be saying they would have lived in an area that Israel should have control over)

The study makes the point that Canaanites survived (in the battles with Israel if they happened) and have the same DNA as Israelites and Jordanians.

I'm saying Israelites evolved out of Canaanites and that Hurrians would be part of their ancestry since Canaanites would be half Hurrian (Iranians) in blood type.

The mixing would have slowed down as Israelites developed particularities about who they would marry. (That has to do with how much the Israelite priesthood had the support of the kings, and then how much they could impose restrictions on the general populace)

The Biblical text at least states that the Israelites and Canaanites lived together. There is text that states marriages took place.

The Shechem story (Gen 34) states that the Hivites (Hurrians?) circumcised their penises and the Patriarch Jacob expected his family to mix in with them as a covenant matter.

Scholars say that the Israelite religion was influenced by the pre Israelite religion of Shechem.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hivites+hurrians&nfpr=1&s...

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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