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Author Topic:   The Evolution Theory is a Myth Equivalent to the Flat Earth Theory
Tangle
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Posts: 6180
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 16 of 248 (836056)
07-09-2018 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by forexhr
07-09-2018 3:37 AM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
Forexhr writes:

What I have said (and proved) is that it is impossible for this process to result in "previously non-existent biological functions, like visual or auditory perception, respiration, locomotion, liquid pumping, processing sensory information, inserting, deleting, or replacing DNA sequences, etc."

You appear to be in the difficult position of showing mathematically that the bee can't fly. Unfortuantely for you the bee, even though it has no mathematical training, knows that your numbers are wrong and goes about its business regardless.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by forexhr, posted 07-09-2018 3:37 AM forexhr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by forexhr, posted 07-09-2018 4:08 AM Tangle has responded

  
forexhr
Member
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-13-2015


(1)
Message 17 of 248 (836057)
07-09-2018 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tangle
07-09-2018 3:57 AM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
I wasn't showing mathematically that the bee can't fly, but instead, that the flying function of the bee cannot result from the molecular recombinations in a gene pool of the population which lacks this function. You should read the article again.

The level of straw man arguments in this topic is staggering.

Edited by forexhr, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2018 3:57 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-09-2018 4:25 AM forexhr has not yet responded
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2018 8:46 AM forexhr has not yet responded
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 11:52 AM forexhr has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 382
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


(5)
Message 18 of 248 (836058)
07-09-2018 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by forexhr
07-09-2018 4:08 AM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
The level of straw man arguments in this topic is staggering.

Well thank goodness irony isn't dead.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by forexhr, posted 07-09-2018 4:08 AM forexhr has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6180
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


(5)
Message 19 of 248 (836066)
07-09-2018 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by forexhr
07-09-2018 4:08 AM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
Forexhr writes:

I wasn't showing mathematically that the bee can't fly, but instead, that the flying function of the bee cannot result from the molecular recombinations in a gene pool of the population which lacks this function. You should read the article again.

I applied the laws of air resistance to insects, and I arrived with Mr. ST LAGUE at the conclusion that their flight is impossible.
Antoine Magnan 1934

The level of straw man arguments in this topic is staggering.

Either you have no sense of irony and analogy or you have no knowledge of science and science history. Most likely both.

To simplify the concept for you, telling people that you have mathematical proof of something that is a factual reality points to your sums being wrong, not reality being wrong.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by forexhr, posted 07-09-2018 4:08 AM forexhr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-09-2018 11:31 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 382
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 20 of 248 (836068)
07-09-2018 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tangle
07-09-2018 8:46 AM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
...telling people that you have mathematical proof of something that is a factual reality points to your sums being wrong, not reality being wrong.

It seems to be a common characteristic of creationists that they cannot grasp the difference between reality and the symbols that we use to imperfectly describe it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2018 8:46 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15403
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(7)
Message 21 of 248 (836070)
07-09-2018 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by forexhr
07-09-2018 4:08 AM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
forexhr writes:

I wasn't showing mathematically that the bee can't fly, but instead, that the flying function of the bee cannot result from the molecular recombinations in a gene pool of the population which lacks this function.


To spell out more explicitly what others have said: You're not showing mathematically that evolution can't happen, but instead that your strawman version of evolution can't happen.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by forexhr, posted 07-09-2018 4:08 AM forexhr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(3)
Message 22 of 248 (836089)
07-09-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by forexhr
07-08-2018 9:47 AM


Although the public acceptance of the evolution theory and the flat Earth theory is quite different, both of these theories are in stark contradiction with empirical facts, which makes them equally mythical. The reason for the difference in public acceptance lies in the level of scientific knowledge required for the understanding of their mythical nature.

But in fact it is exactly the people with the most scientific knowledge, (i.e. scientists) who say that evolution is good science and that creationism is a crock of shit. Which means that it is creationism that resembles flat-earthism in this respect.

Your "math" is of course crap, which may go some way to explaining why scientists don't take you people seriously.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by forexhr, posted 07-08-2018 9:47 AM forexhr has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 19567
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 23 of 248 (836141)
07-11-2018 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by forexhr
07-08-2018 9:47 AM


Math is a model, not reality
Hi forexhr, and welcome to the fray,

... However, in the case of evolution theory, things are not so simple since the general public is not familiar with the empirical or mathematical knowledge about the actual capabilities and constraints of the evolutionary processes. But once this knowledge is revealed, the mythical nature of the evolution theory becomes obvious, ...

So sorry, but math is just a model, it is not reality, and when the model and reality are at odds it is the model that is wrong. Usually due to a faulty assumption. As others have said, the map is not the reality.

Science uses models, like hypothesis, to make predictions, and when those predictions fail or are contradicted by evidence, it is the model/hypothesis that is demonstrated to be wrong and in need of correction or being discarded.

Evolution happens, it happens every day in the world around us in every generation. Perhaps your error is in your concept of what evolution is and how it works. There are a couple of sites that can help determine this, my favorite being An introduction to evolution, by Berkeley University.

Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by forexhr, posted 07-08-2018 9:47 AM forexhr has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 24 of 248 (836142)
07-11-2018 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by forexhr
07-08-2018 9:47 AM


I think it's a good start
...the general public is not familiar with the empirical or mathematical knowledge about the actual capabilities and constraints of the evolutionary processes.

I think this is true, but I also think nobody here is getting what you are saying either, and there's little hope they ever will. I find it a little hard to follow you but I think you've done a pretty good job of being clear anyway and it's just my lack of familiarity with your reasoning processes that makes it hard for me, In fact I think you are making more sense than most creationists who come here and I'm impressed. But even if you got it said to absolute perfection they won't get it.

But once this knowledge is revealed, the mythical nature of the evolution theory becomes obvious, just as in the case of the flat Earth theory.

I've only read a few paragraphs of your article, in which I suppose you mean to provide the knowledge so that the mythical nature of the ToE will become obvious, but I know from experience that nobody here will get it no matter how clear you manage to make it.

You are quite right. There are indeed four processes that are called evolutionary processes in everything I've read, which implies that those four processes should be able to produce brand new features and functions if the ToE is true and if those are in fact the processes of evolution. I've also made use of the idea of those four processes in my own arguments but in a different way.

Mutation, migration, natural selection and genetic drift are indeed offered as the Processes of Evolution. They do account for change, that is, as you put it:

...these four processes are factual, i.e. they are known by actual experience or observation...
,

they do work, they do bring about change, but only within the range of possibilities already present, they cannot produce anything new, and producing something new is essential if evolutionary theory is true.

I think you are quite right about the main point you are making but you'll never get anywhere convincing anyone here. You are right they aren't even getting the basic idea, it's all straw man misreadings. Just getting across the main outline of your point here is probably not going to happen.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by forexhr, posted 07-08-2018 9:47 AM forexhr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-11-2018 3:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 248 (836144)
07-11-2018 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
07-09-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
ringo writes:

forexhr writes:


I wasn't showing mathematically that the bee can't fly, but instead, that the flying function of the bee cannot result from the molecular recombinations in a gene pool of the population which lacks this function.

To spell out more explicitly what others have said: You're not showing mathematically that evolution can't happen, but instead that your strawman version of evolution can't happen.

He said something really very simple: that in a population or its gene pool that lacks the flying function, there is no way the molecular reconbinations can ever produce that function.

And it is implied from what he has said previously, that there are four evolutionary processes that supposedly account for all the changes required by the ToE, but in the example he gives here of a population/gene pool that lacks a particular function there is no way those processes could produce that function.

He says he wants to try to prove this through e coli experiments? At this rate he'll never be able to get to that part of his argument, he's just going to keep having to deal with all these straw man misreadings of what he's trying to say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 07-11-2018 1:21 PM Faith has responded
 Message 28 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-11-2018 3:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15403
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 26 of 248 (836146)
07-11-2018 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
07-11-2018 1:12 PM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
Faith writes:

He says he wants to try to prove this through e coli experiments? At this rate he'll never be able to get to that part of his argument....


Nothing that anybody says here can stop him from doing experiments. If he did bring experimental data to back up his claims, he might have a leg to stand on. As it is, he's just re-interpreting the data from somebody else's experiments. That's a tired old creationist ploy and it isn't likely to get much respect here.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 2:58 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 27 of 248 (836158)
07-11-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
07-11-2018 1:21 PM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
I didn't say he was going to DO experiments, he believes experiments that have already been done prove his point.

But I may be getting him wrong so I hope he'll come back and explain.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 07-11-2018 1:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 07-11-2018 3:37 PM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 28 of 248 (836160)
07-11-2018 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
07-11-2018 1:12 PM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
He said something really very simple: that in a population or its gene pool that lacks the flying function, there is no way the molecular reconbinations can ever produce that function.

Well of course recombination can't do that.

Mutation and selection, on the other hand ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 29 of 248 (836161)
07-11-2018 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-11-2018 12:49 PM


Re: I think it's a good start
they do work, they do bring about change, but only within the range of possibilities already present, they cannot produce anything new

Did you just claim that mutation can't produce anything new?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 12:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15403
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 30 of 248 (836163)
07-11-2018 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
07-11-2018 2:58 PM


Re: Blogging From the Beyond
Faith writes:

I didn't say he was going to DO experiments...


I'm saying he SHOULD do experiments.

Faith writes:

... he believes experiments that have already been done prove his point.


Why would he understand the experiments better than the people who DID them?

The scientific approach would be to devise his own experiments to show How and why the original experimenters' conclusions were invalid.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 2:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 3:40 PM ringo has responded

  
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