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Author Topic:   Evolution is a Religious Issue
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 226 of 303 (213266)
06-01-2005 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by randman
06-01-2005 6:16 PM


The example I have used at times is the assumption of a static past, that time "flows" (for lack of a better illustration) only linearly
Since we observe only linear time, that's not an assumption; it's a conclusion from the evidence.
But time couldn't be any other way. There's only the past and the future, and the interface between them is called the present. Since the past must be before the future and not the other way around, how could time be anything but linear?
Look, it's time to call "bullshit" on you. You don't suspect evolution because it fails on any scientific merit. You suspect it because it doesn't incorporate any of your pseudo-religion, and that's a massive affront to your ego. You'll pardon us if that relegates you to "troll" status here at this science-based discussion forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by randman, posted 06-01-2005 6:16 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by randman, posted 06-01-2005 10:43 PM crashfrog has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 227 of 303 (213313)
06-01-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by crashfrog
06-01-2005 7:54 PM


So general relativity is out the window because you know, it just can't be any other way, eh?
Gee, that's a logical argument.
And there is no evidence for anything affecting time the opposite direction, eh?
Weren't you one of those that discounted consciousness-based models of explaining quantum effects in favor of the theory of waves moving backwards in time, or am I mixing you up with someone else here?
Uniformatarianism is an assumption whether you want to admit or not. Denying that is not real science, but bogus pretentiousness on your part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by crashfrog, posted 06-01-2005 7:54 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by crashfrog, posted 06-01-2005 10:55 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 228 of 303 (213317)
06-01-2005 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by crashfrog
06-01-2005 6:59 PM


You guys are just being absurd crash. First, when someone posts scientific evidence critical of your scenarios, or observations on how you treat data, you complain, well, what are your views in general, not as far as the science, and then when someone discusses their views, you complain.
It's more or less an artful dodge on your part to avoid the scientific criticism by seeking to divert the topic to personal views.
As far as the science, the truth is there just is not enough evidence to say, for sure, exactly how all of life has come into being.
One thing is certain. Basing your concept of "nature", "physical", or "real" only on classical paradigms while ignoring the findings of quantum physics is a serious error in the thinking of evolutionists. To argue something is not "natural" even if it occurred in the physical world is non-sensical, but typical of evolutionist logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by crashfrog, posted 06-01-2005 6:59 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by crashfrog, posted 06-01-2005 10:57 PM randman has not replied
 Message 233 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 11:25 PM randman has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 229 of 303 (213321)
06-01-2005 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by randman
06-01-2005 10:43 PM


So general relativity is out the window because you know, it just can't be any other way, eh?
I'm sure you probably think you understand general relativity. That's so cute.
Uniformatarianism is an assumption whether you want to admit or not.
Since I've proven that it isn't, and since you have yet to address my proof in any meaningful way - or meaningless way, for that matter; you're just ignoring it - that's one more assertion of yours I'm simply going to discount.

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 Message 227 by randman, posted 06-01-2005 10:43 PM randman has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 230 of 303 (213323)
06-01-2005 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by randman
06-01-2005 10:48 PM


First, when someone posts scientific evidence critical of your scenarios
When, exactly, did that happen?
Be specific.
As far as the science, the truth is there just is not enough evidence to say, for sure, exactly how all of life has come into being.
Who said we were sure? All I've ever claimed is that evolution is the most accurate scientific model to explain the history of life on Earth.
Try not to argue strawmen, ok?

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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 231 of 303 (213327)
06-01-2005 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by J. Davis
06-01-2005 9:59 AM


quote:
I still think a monkey wouldn't leave it's tree/niche.
So, would an iguana leave it's niche, like this one?:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 9:59 AM J. Davis has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 232 of 303 (213329)
06-01-2005 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by J. Davis
06-01-2005 9:59 AM


Niches
I still think a monkey wouldn't leave it's tree/niche.
Well, animals do. And what if the niche left the 'monkey'? Then what?

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 Message 205 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 9:59 AM J. Davis has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 233 of 303 (213333)
06-01-2005 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by randman
06-01-2005 10:48 PM


Please explain why we cannot use DNA testing to determine relatedness between all organisms.
Can you tell me where along the line of a given genetic lineage that naturalistic Evolutionary processes weren't or couldn't be responsible for the genetic pattern that is observed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by randman, posted 06-01-2005 10:48 PM randman has replied

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 Message 234 by randman, posted 06-01-2005 11:30 PM nator has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 234 of 303 (213337)
06-01-2005 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by nator
06-01-2005 11:25 PM


Schraf, are you claiming DNA evidence can show when a species evolved with accuracy in the geologic time-scale, and what species it evolved from, and what species they evolved from.
If DNA evidence is so accurate and powerful, why is there debate, for example, when humans left Africa suppossedly?
Why does the archealogical evidence not always match the genetic "evidence", dating/relatives technique?
Could it be that it is wee bit harder to determine these things from current genetic research and knowledge than determing whom the father is?
Nah, couldn't be that...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 11:25 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 11:59 PM randman has replied
 Message 238 by AdminNosy, posted 06-02-2005 12:13 AM randman has replied
 Message 247 by crashfrog, posted 06-02-2005 1:09 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 235 of 303 (213340)
06-01-2005 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by CK
05-31-2005 1:41 PM


Re: Fourth time I've asked
Btw, one area I for YEC that I have never seen refuted in peer-reviewed literature, although it could be and I missed it, is Gentry's polonium halos, which seem to totally refute the idea that it took millions or even thousands of years for granite to cool.
http://www.unmaskingevolution.com/12-radiohalos.htm

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 Message 174 by CK, posted 05-31-2005 1:41 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by AdminNosy, posted 06-02-2005 12:02 AM randman has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 236 of 303 (213349)
06-01-2005 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by randman
06-01-2005 11:30 PM


quote:
Schraf, are you claiming DNA evidence can show when a species evolved with accuracy in the geologic time-scale, and what species it evolved from, and what species they evolved from.
We have only known about the existence of DNA since the 1920's, and didn't even begin to understand the molecular structure of DNA until the late 40's or early 50's, and have only been able to map entire genomes in the last few years.
So no, the field is far too young to have all the information you are demanding.
However, we have mapped portions of the genomes of many different organisms and we find, generally, that all life shares basic genetic similarity to a greater or lesser extent.
Additionally, very nearly always, we find similar broken genes in species we considered to be closely related prior to the discovery of DNA.
I find it interesting that someone such as yourself, who seems to be so familiar with the relevant research regarding Evolution that he feels comfortable rejecting all of it, wouldn't have brought any of this up already.
The thing is, though, we are mapping new genomes all the time and are making more and more connections between organisms which point to common descent with modification.
And anyway, you didn't answer my question:
Please explain why we cannot use DNA testing to determine relatedness between all organisms.
quote:
If DNA evidence is so accurate and powerful, why is there debate, for example, when humans left Africa suppossedly?
Because we don't have perfect information, especially in historical sciences, and especially in historical sciences that deal with events many millions of years ago.
Tell me, why is it important to know exactly when humans left Africa?
quote:
Why does the archealogical evidence not always match the genetic "evidence", dating/relatives technique?
For example?
quote:
Could it be that it is wee bit harder to determine these things from current genetic research and knowledge than determing whom the father is?
Sure, it's harder.
But do you deny that it is possible?
If you allow that we can can determine the liklihood of "who the father is", what is to stop us from using the process to determine the the extent to which we are related to any other organism on the planet?
If you agree that the similarity or disimilarity of one's genetic code indicates relatedness to others, how many "steps removed" from one's father will you allow us to go before you say "genetics alone will not allow this next step and God must be invoked to explain it."?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by randman, posted 06-01-2005 11:30 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by randman, posted 06-02-2005 2:44 AM nator has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 237 of 303 (213352)
06-02-2005 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by randman
06-01-2005 11:39 PM


Off topic
That would take us rather far off topic. It is more appropriate in Dates and Dating which you seem to be avoiding.
If you haven't seen a refutation of that it can only mean that you are not looking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by randman, posted 06-01-2005 11:39 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 238 of 303 (213356)
06-02-2005 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by randman
06-01-2005 11:30 PM


Answering points
It would be appropriate for you to check that you are answering all of Schraf questions as it appears she is attempting to do with yours.
If you continue to be unable to respond in good faith it may be time for you to leave the science based threads. How about we give you a couple more days to see how you do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by randman, posted 06-01-2005 11:30 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by randman, posted 06-02-2005 2:57 AM AdminNosy has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 239 of 303 (213388)
06-02-2005 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by nator
06-01-2005 11:59 PM


quote:
I find it interesting that someone such as yourself, who seems to be so familiar with the relevant research regarding Evolution that he feels comfortable rejecting all of it, wouldn't have brought any of this up already.
Shraf, I did not bring up all of the evidence for evolution on this thread because the thread topic does not call for it, imo, something AdminNosy ought to have noticed.
You admit that the science of DNA testing between different species and paternity suits contains a wide divergence in accuracy for determining issues such as when a species evolved and so forth. Since that was common knowledge, I did not take your diverting the topic with a question on DNA testing for paternity suits very seriously and still do not, and moreover, am somewhat offended at the suggestion made elsewhere but also insinuated by you, that the question is proper and my lack of attention to it is not.
quote:
Please explain why we cannot use DNA testing to determine relatedness between all organisms.
Asked and answered. You admitted that DNA testing is still in development and cannot be relied on to demonstrate degrees of relatedness, when species evolved from other species, etc,....
quote:
So no, the field is far too young to have all the information you are demanding.
Your insistence in repeating an inappropiate question for the discussion, and then when told the answer, to still insist on repeating it begs the question of the soundness in the approach to the evidence.
Moreover, I have also given you another explanation, namely that genetic relatedness does not necessarily equate with evolution. You assume because the genes involved are similar stuff, that this means they must have evolved, but that is an assumption. What if, for sake of argument, they are merely similar because of another commonality, such as sameness in author, or sameness in methods of creation, but that these methods include more than universal common descent from a single source?
You insist that this is not possible, and yet refuse claims of it being possible as a priori unscientific, and so you by definition do not give it a fair scientific hearing.
For me, I believe it is better to say what you do not know than to insist that a guess or conjecture is true, and rely on overstatements to try to convince everyone that it is.
The Africa example is simply an example, nothing else, but one where geneticists are on record being cautious of how their new data does not agree with current archeological data. It is a side point.
As far as your other questions, they've been asked and answered fully. If the technology is not there, it is not there yet, period.
I would also like to hear what alternative methods of creating life from the building blocks of chemistry are envisioned. In other words, you assume that genetic similarities can be traced back so we can go from IDing one's father all the way back along the tree to the first organism or whatever you want to call it.
Well then, let's consider alternative explanations. For example, what if there was multiple descent, or special creations of kinds, or an ID scenario. Presumably the make-up of DNA is partially determined by the fundamental properties of the chemistry of ingredients on this planet, right?
So why would we not see genetic similarities if there were special creation, multiple descent, and ID, especially if DNA is agent God or whoever set uo to tranfer traits.
It would seem you are arguing that:
In any of these alternate scenarios, that there would be DNA and then something entirely different, but that doesn't make sense.
And, arguing that none of these scenarios for interpreting the data is acceptable a priori.
Either way, those seem to me to be ideological, not logical.
Let me put it this way. If God were to use special creation to create identical twins, for sake of argument, would not the DNA be the same essentially?
So arguing that DNA similarities or any similarities must necessarily mean common descent is merely an assumption. You can argue it is valid assumption, but that's still what it is.
Another bit of evidence since AdminNosey seems to want to throw the thread wide open, imo, is that it sure appears the rate of extinction outpaces the rate of new species evolving. I've never seen an adequate answer to that. I have long said and thought, that if evolution, being so unlikely by "natural" means(as defined by classical physics) is true, it is indeed powerful evidence for their being a Creator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 11:59 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Mammuthus, posted 06-02-2005 3:47 AM randman has replied
 Message 246 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 8:47 AM randman has not replied
 Message 248 by mick, posted 06-02-2005 5:06 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 240 of 303 (213390)
06-02-2005 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by AdminNosy
06-02-2005 12:13 AM


Re: Answering points
AdminNosey, instead of threatening to ban me from the science threads, perhaps you should consider censuring Shraf for bringing an inappropiate question into the thread, one in which I rightly ignored.
The subject I brought up was overstatements, wrong logic, etc,...used in evolution. The claim was put forward, or that is how I read it, that microevolution by definition equates with macroevolution, and I was merely bringing up the fact this is a false statement and false logic, that microevolution can occur without mutations, and yet mutations are considered necessary to produce the range of life we see today, and thus microevolution itself does not equate with macroevolution.
Addtionally, most of my requests for data to support the claims of evolutionists were conveniently ignored by you, with no demands they respond to back up their claims, but somehow because I rightly ignore an inappropiate question, you suggest I comply with demands to answer someone's questions, even when they appear there to dodge the central issue of the thread. Not claiming everyone has to stay on topic or anything, but if you divert the topic, I hardly see why anyone should be forced to go along with you on that.
Shraf's question was answered a long time ago, and this is not a thread on DNA testing for paternity suits, is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by AdminNosy, posted 06-02-2005 12:13 AM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by AdminNosy, posted 06-02-2005 3:03 AM randman has replied

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