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Author | Topic: Is Radiometric Dating Really that Accurate? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
EvO-DuDe Inactive Member |
Okay, this topic seems to have died. I'll attempt to revive it.
It appears that TrueCreation believes that yes, radioisotope dating is accurate in the sense that different dating techniques generally do agree when used on the same rock. However, TrueCreation believes that the radioactive decay rates were accelerated some time in the past. But TrueCreation has not really explained how this accelerated decay could have happened and if there is any evidence supporting his acclerated decay theory. Is there any evidence for accelerated decay?
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edge Member (Idle past 1734 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: I understand the the basic evidence goes back to historical measurements of the speed of light, some dating to over a hundred years ago. They show a general decline in measured speeds up until about 1960 when the decline miraculously stopped. In fact, much of the overall slope of the line graph I remember seeing relied heavily on one early measurement. To some, this means that the speed of light coincidentally stopped declining at about the time technology to measure it developed. The reason it would stop is unclear. Since this observation, elaborate stories have emerged as to how this could happen. Most ignore the effects on the physical universe that a much higher lightspeed would have, but those are just details. As to evidence for c-decay, I haven't really seen any.
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Rationalist Inactive Member |
There is good reason to believe that radioactive decay was not faster in the past than it was today, at least on the order of 6,000 years.
Radioactive decay generates heat, and this heat would be rather intense if we were to accellerate the decay of radioisotopes to the point where the decay products would match a 6,000 year old earth. That we do not see any evidence of dramatic and intense heat having been released over the 6,000 year period argues against the accellerated decay rate. Of course we can simply add another ad-hoc hypothesis that the decay rate was indeed accellerated, and the heat was somehow eliminated from the process. These are just the sort of ad-hoc explanations that tend to multiply unbounded in creationist arguments. I believe that the astronomical evidence also points to a constant decay rate in the past. If the light we are seeing from nearby stars has traveled any distance (even 6,000 years worth), our view into the past indicates that their nuclear processes have remained constant over the period of time the light has traveled. This applies regardless of whether the source of the light is 6,000 years old or several billion years old. There is no evidence of any change in historical nuclear processes anywhere else in the universe.
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5708 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rationalist:
[B]There is good reason to believe that radioactive decay was not faster in the past than it was today, at least on the order of 6,000 years. Radioactive decay generates heat, and this heat would be rather intense if we were to accellerate the decay of radioisotopes to the point where the decay products would match a 6,000 year old earth. [/quote] [/b] JM: Correct! See ROASTING ADAM-Creationism's Heat Problem Cheers Joe Meert
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Rationalist Inactive Member |
Likewise, and theories about the nature of the speed of light at the very beginning of the universe notwithstanding.. the astronomical evidence also points to the speed of light remaining entirely constant as far as we can measure to the very furthest quasars.
We know this because the information the light has the same energy minus the red shift (amplitude), where we would expect higher energy if the light was compressed by a slower speed. Also, the processes we see happening with this light seem to be running at the same speed as they would nearby. Like a record player played too fast, slow light speed speeded up would cause processes from far away to be on "fast forward", and they aren't. This clearly argues for a constant speed of light.
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Thunderbird Inactive Member |
Hi, I am interested in discussing the topic of radiometric dating.
I think that the current potassium-argon radioisotope dating methodfor igneous rocks is inaccurate because it has been tested on rocks that are known to be young since they have been observed to formed recently by active volcanos, such as at Mount Saint Helens and in New Zealand. Applying this dating method to these rocks resulted in very highnumbers for these rocks ranging from 340,000 to 2.8 Million years.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3851 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
Who did the analysis and what methodology was used? In lava flows you can find xenoliths--fragments of rock from deep underground that are carried with the lava and so are much older than the flow.
YECs can make radiometric dating fail by doing such things as sampling xenoliths and taking only one data point, or discarding several datapoints for one spurious, irreproducible one. Another problem with dating such recent flows is that the margin of error commonly is within a couple of million of years. If a flow is 100 million years old, and gives a radiometric age of 102 MY then that error is perfectly reasonable. But if a flow that happened yesterday gives 2 MY, YECs cry foul. It's really a silly argument when taken in the correct context. [This message has been edited by gene90, 08-22-2002]
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wj Inactive Member |
Subject to Thunderbird actually providing references for his statements, they appears to be based on creationist Snelling's incompetent or dishonest work.
Examples of successful dating of historical lava flows are included in the links in my message #11 in the "Two questions concerning radioisotope dating" thread. Or are we simply to be persuaded by creationist assertions?
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Thunderbird Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B]Who did the analysis and what methodology was used? In lava flows you can find xenoliths--fragments of rock from deep underground that are carried with the lava and so are much older than the flow. [/QUOTE] The analysis was done by Dr. Steve Austin. At this point, Ihave no reason to believe, he or Snelling are fraudulent, since I've not read of the reasons this claim is being made. It was not established that xenoliths were captured by his sample. He took steps to prevent them from being used by manually selectingrocks that didn't appear to be xenoliths and checking the rocks under the microscope for microscopic xenoliths. quote: Austin reported on 5 different samples that were sent to the labfor the Potassium-Argon dating. He didn't say whether other samples were omitted from his article. The article doesn't state whether multiple datapoints were provided for each of the samples. Why wouldn't the lab give produced one number based on the potassium-argon ratios for the entirety of each sample? I would have no way of knowing if he intentionally selected xenoliths or discarded datapoints. What reason is there tobelieve that accusation? quote: I'm not sure if this is a silly argument. The young rocks are exhibiting a very old age because they have argon in them. A smallratio of argon to potassium would result in a very large age because of the long half life of potassium. Therefore this method is susceptible to inaccuracy if small amounts of additional Argon are present. The error is dependent on the amount or ratio of additional Argon present. The young rock should not have a small amount of Argon in it. Instead, it should have next to nil or a trace amount in order for the method to be accurate. [This message has been edited by gene90, 08-22-2002][/B][/QUOTE]
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wj Inactive Member |
Ah, the incredulity and selective belief of the creationist.
Well Thunderbird, give citations for your claims. I'm sure I know where they come from but you never know, there might be something new in the world of creationism. I will be absent for about a week so others might demolish your cited sources before I get back. In the meantime, read the links I referred you to which give examples of accurate dating of historical lava flows eg Mt Vesuvius. Explain how accurate dates can be obtained by a methodology which you hope is inaccurate. Your incredulity at tested rocks showing a "very old age" of 2 million years should be put into context. K-40 has a half life of 1.2 billion years. It's quite understandable that even minute experimental errors can swamp the measurements of radiogenic argon from rocks only hundreds of years old. It's very difficult to do correctly but it can be done, but obviously not by creationists. "Very old rocks" are those which are dated by the K-Ar method at billions of years old.
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5708 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
Thunderbird,
Did Austin also run those samples via the Ar-Ar method? If not, why? Do you feel it is important that every sample dated must give a correct age or the method is suspect? How do you explain the volumes of concordant ages (for example see One of the main objections to radiometric dating or the discussions of radiometric dating here Frequently Asked )? If radiometric dating is so wrong and untrustworthy, why do so many practicing scientists use it? Do you think that science turns its back on the anomalies as part of a grand conspiracy? Do you think that there are no Christian scientists who use radiometric dating to verify an old earth? Can you please cite any of Austins or Snellings peer-reviewed literature on radiometric dating that shows they have a clue as to how to collect, process and run the samples they are collecting? Why do creationists involve themselves in pseudoscientific pursuits such as the RATE project More Faulty Creation Science from The Insitutute for Creation Research ? Cheers Joe Meert
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edge Member (Idle past 1734 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: Ah, but we do have evidence that Steve Austin has committed fraud. Read this reference, specifically the Introductory Lecture. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icr-visit/bartelt1.html
quote: But, if someone's agenda is to 'prove' that radiometric dating was invalid, would you trust them to do the sampling? You should learn to critically analyze your sources.
quote: Well, see above.
quote: Why not? Should they also not have small amounts of fluorine? Do you really understand geochemistry and radiometric dating?
quote: Not at all. Sometimes it is possible to measure the original content of the sample. In other methods, the actual amount of daughter nuclides does not affect the date. In others, it is a safe assumption that there was no daughter in the sample at the time of formation.
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Thunderbird Inactive Member |
quote: The point is that Austin was testing a method that makes the assumption that these igneous rocks didn't have any Argon in them.That is what was assumed in the formula by others who used the K-Ar method.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Read it more carefully. Using a dating method known to be inaccurate at less than 2 million years to date recent lava flows, and then using the results to attempt to discredit the method is deceptive.
quote: It isn't when applied to recent material. He proved this, not that it needed proving.
quote: Not really. One does not measure the size of an electron with a yardstick.
quote: Again. Of course it is inaccurate. 1969 is well shy of 2mya.
quote: Its called a margin for error. A date a million years off is tolerable when you are dating something that is 200 million years old. But not when you are dating something 20 years old.
quote: The more methods the better. We cross compare and get a more accurate picture. Really, I don't think you know how radio-isotope dating works. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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edge Member (Idle past 1734 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: You obviously didn't read my link. Austin has been caught in a lie. If that isn't deception, then perhaps you should give me your definition of the word.
quote: Wow! Johnny Cochran is looking for you!
quote: No, the conclusion was predetermined. Clearly the work was one of very poor scholarship and deceptive. You have already said that you cannot determine much of the conditions of the experiment. This was by design.
quote: But no geochronologist would conduct his analysis in this way. Why would Austin break protocol?
quote: But he omits Dalrymples explanation. That is deception.
quote: It has been shown to be inaccurate in incompetent hands and under conditions that are not acceptable in mainstream science.
quote: This has yet to be shown. You have been deceived. By Stuart Nevins, or was that Steve Austin.
quote: Not at all. Where did you ever get this idea from. It is simply that Ar-Ar dating give more information regarding the thermal history of the sample.
quote: Nothing.
quote: Nonsense. Do you really know anything other than what you read in creationist tracts?
quote: Nope. Austin did his level best to get invalid answers.
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