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Author Topic:   The philosophy behind The Twelve Steps
Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 46 of 108 (400328)
05-12-2007 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by anastasia
05-11-2007 10:11 PM


Addictions: a disorder of worship?
anastasia writes:

Phat, of course I understand the Christian concept of being powerless over human nature without God. But we are talking about feeding an arguable theological tenet to your average drug addict.

I am only telling you from personal experience that this is creating a situation where many people ARE NOT becoming suddenly God-fearing, but are sucking up this 'powerless' stuff, especially in conjunction with what they hear about having an 'addictive personality' and they are using it as an excuse to fail.

Edward Welch talks about cravings in his book. He says that there are different types of cravings and that they can occur at different times. Example:
1) while abstaining and sober
2 after taking the first drink and then wanting more
3) when physically dependant on the substance.

Welch elaborates:

Welch writes:

Cravings while sober: When cravings come as unpredictable urges for alcohol even when a person is "clean and sober" and there is none around, it certainly seems to suggest a biological culprit. After all, there was no conscious intent. How can the person be morally responsible when the craving came automatically? This kind of craving, however, is more commonplace than we might think. If we really feel like something, our entire person will desire it--we will feel the desire physically. Also, these desires can be dormant sometimes and then stirred up for no apparant reason. ...(Triggers)...The person who has struggled in the past with pornography
might abstain without craving for months. Then, when he goes through an airport on a business trip, the desire is overwhelming. Why? Because there is availability without accountability.

Of course, Welch approaches the issue from a spiritual perspective as well as acknowleging biological realities. He once was a Heroin Addict himself.

Welch writes:

Addiction is bondage to the rule of a substance, activity, or state of mind, which then
becomes the center of life, defending itself from the truth so that even bad consequences
don’t bring repentance, and leading to further estrangement from God. I suggest
instead that we acknowledge that addictions are a disorder of worship. By doing this we
are not ignoring the out-of-control experience of addictions, and we are not being
blinded by the complexities of an addict’s inner world. However, we are gaining
important insights into our hearts and our relationship with God. Such a view of change
immediately reminds us that we are in a battle between the worship of God and the
worship of ourselves and our desires. It explains why we feel so guilty after a night of
self-indulgence. And, since we don’t have to wait for a physical cure to provide lasting
change, it offers great hope through confession of sin, faith in Jesus’ forgiveness of sins,
and obedience.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by anastasia, posted 05-11-2007 10:11 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 05-12-2007 3:18 PM Phat has responded
 Message 48 by anastasia, posted 05-12-2007 9:58 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
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Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 47 of 108 (400351)
05-12-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
05-12-2007 9:23 AM


Re: Addictions: a disorder of worship?
Edward Welch writes:

... we are in a battle between the worship of God and the worship of ourselves and our desires.

What is "worship of God"?

We can't do anything "for" God. We probably can't do anything to "impress" God.

Isn't "worship" just doing what He wants us to do? If we love God by loving our neighbours as ourselves, don't we "worship" Him in a similar way?

So, if addictions are a "disorder of worship", or a displacement of our worship from it's proper "target", isn't the proper target our fellow human beings?

It seems contradictory that 12-step programs emphasize help from others, while the "disorder of worship" idea implies help to others.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 05-18-2007 4:24 PM ringo has responded
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 48 of 108 (400372)
05-12-2007 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
05-12-2007 9:23 AM


Re: Addictions: a disorder of worship?
Phat writes:

Edward Welch talks about cravings in his book. He says that there are different types of cravings and that they can occur at different times. Example:
1) while abstaining and sober
2 after taking the first drink and then wanting more
3) when physically dependant on the substance.

Well, Phat, I can say I have two of three types of cravings. I crave a drink, a smoke, a food, coffee, etc. I crave them out of the blue, and also after having indulged in a sampling.

What do cravings have to do with addiction, really? I can give in to cravings and not be an addict. According to the best Catholic doctrine I can drink, smoke, probably do recreational drugs, gamble, whatever, and it is not sinful.

An addiction very well may be. Your answer, Welch's really, is that we are not worshipping God correctly.

OK. How is that? Ringo is partly on the money. First you have to determine what an addiction is. It is not merely a repetitive behaviour. It is a behaviour that is having serious negative consequences on a person's health or desired life style. The 'sin' aspect comes into play when a person believes that they were made to fulfill a purpose, to live a godly life, to be the best they can be. Many addictions rob a household of money that is sorely needed. This is strongly against 'do unto others'. Other addictions in the long or short term are basically lethal, which makes them akin to murder of self...suicide. An addict has to take stock of the damages, even if the addiciton is not harmful in the common usage, but gets in the way of who they want to be ideally, or who they feel God wants them to be.

Forget about sin, Phat, throw it away. :) Believing something is a sin may only add more motive to give it up. Or...not.

Point is, recovery comes down to self motivation, whether it be because of God, a group, the pure desire for a better life, the realization of hurting people, etc. What motivation 'works' for people? If you want to say the AA Christian motive works, fine. I think that the knowledge of God can help some people to replace their focus and feel capable. I am seriously curious what this does for those of us who already know God? Isn't the implication that we should never have given in to addiciton in the first place?

What is really the deal is how far we take the biological aspect. If belief in God was not enough to prevent bad behaviour, not an occasional 'sin' but a total ignorance of what we stand for...then how do we believe some 12 steps will recoup us? If it is NOT because a person ignores their beliefs that they become addicts, then we have still to go to the 'addictive personality' route.

IOW..."I am Christan, but something in my nature makes me desire alcohol against my deepest wishes'.

Either this is true, and you need to have a type of couseling that deals with the physical part...or this is false, and you need to reevaluate your faith.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 05-12-2007 9:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 49 of 108 (400463)
05-14-2007 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by anastasia
05-12-2007 9:58 PM


Re: Addictions: a disorder of worship?
Anastasia writes:

Forget about sin, Phat, throw it away. :) Believing something is a sin may only add more motive to give it up. Or...not.

For a Christian, a sin is merely the acknowledgment that we have momentarily lost our focus and our passion.

NIV writes:

1 John 1:8-2:1

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

1 John 2

2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Anastasia, when you as a Catholic go to confession, what is it that you are actually doing?

New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia writes:

No Catholic believes that a priest simply as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; but He can and does exercise it through the ministration of men. Since He has seen fit to exercise it by means of this sacrament, it cannot be said that the Church or the priest interferes between the soul and God; on the contrary, penance is the removal of the one obstacle that keeps the soul away from God.

More about this topic can be found here.

When you say to the Priest, forgive me, Father for I have sinned ...what you are really doing is reaffirming your desire for communion with God. You basically are declaring that you have willfully or unknowingly separated yourself from Communion in the mind and heart and have set your attention on other things.

While this is human nature, it also is the reason why religion and spirituality provide a way out for many people. Celebrate Recovery is the Christian version of the Twelve Steps developed by Pastor Rick Warren.

Confession would center around Step 5.

Twelve Steps
and
Their Biblical Comparisons

1. We admitted we were powerless over our addictions and compulsive behaviors, that our lives had become unmanageable.
I know that nothing good lives in me,
that is, in my sinful nature.
For I have the desire to do what is good,
but I cannot carry it out.
Romans 7:18

2. We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
For it is God who works in you to will
and to act according to his good purpose.
Philippians 2:13

3. We made a decision to turn our lives and our wills over to the care of God.
Therefore, I urge you, brothers,
in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies
as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God
- this is your spiritual act of worship.
Romans 12:1

4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the Lord.
Lamentations 3:40

5. We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Therefore confess your sins to each other
and pray for each other so that you may be healed.
James 5:16

6. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Humble yourselves before the Lord,
and he will lift you up.
James 4:10

7. We humbly asked Him to remove all our shortcomings.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful
and will forgive us our sins
and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

8. We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Luke 6:31

9. We made direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar
and there remember that your brother has something against you,
leave your gift there in front of the altar.
First go and be reconciled to your brother;
then come and offer your gift.
Matthew 5:23-24

10. We continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
So, if you think you are standing firm,
be careful that you don't fall!
1 Corinthians 10:12

11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us, and power to carry that out.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly.
Colossians 3:16

12. Having had a spiritual experience as the result of these steps, we try to carry this message to others and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin,
you who are spiritual should restore them gently.
But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
Galatians 6:1

By the way...at this point in time, I am working on Step4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. and I can honestly say that introspection can be a good thing if it is structured. Many people marinate on their past like some endless loop tape in their minds.

What I have discovered is that I actually had suppressed many of the emotions and events that were in my past.

Once I examine them and honestly confess them to my counselor, forgiving those who have harmed me and also acknowledging my part of it all, I can forget about the past and move forward. Stay tuned! :D

Edited by Phat, : added features!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by anastasia, posted 05-12-2007 9:58 PM anastasia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by dwise1, posted 05-14-2007 10:29 AM Phat has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 50 of 108 (400488)
05-14-2007 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
05-14-2007 2:58 AM


Re: Addictions: a disorder of worship?
OK, so the Twelve Steps are explicitly Christian. Fine. If Christians want to use then they can use it.

Just don't foist it off on the rest of us. For whom it is not only useless and meaningless, but also would be counter-productive.

Former fundamentalist minister Dan Barker, who had been born and raised in the faith (and whose mother would always sing in tongues as she did the housework), described the situation of a fundamentalist's "theology becoming his psychology". In another thread, evangelical Christian Mark described those on his side as viewing the world very differently than the rest of the population does. I think that what he was describing ties in with Barker's statement. And the nonsensical [to the rest of us] aspects of DivorceCare and Celebrate Recovery and Christian therapists also tie into their "theology having become their psychology".

For people conditioned to think in terms of sin and their relationship to God, then therapy would need to address those concerns and be cast in that psychology. But for those who instead think in terms of right and wrong and what it's doing to themselves and to others, sin and God don't mean anything and belaboring sin and God doesn't make any sense.

And I think that this 12-step business


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 05-14-2007 2:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 51 of 108 (401158)
05-18-2007 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by dwise1
05-14-2007 10:29 AM


Step 4 is crucial
Whether you are a Christian or not, Step 4 is a crucial part of any recovery process.

You examine your life, going as far back as you can remember. There will be certain places and events and people that were significant in that stage of your life.

  • Journaling is helpful at this point.

  • 1) Who is the person/place/event that affected me either positively or negatively?

  • 2) What specific action did this event/person/place cause that hurt/helped me?

  • 3) What effect did this person/event have on my life? (Positive or Negative?)

  • Finally, what was my responsibility? What part did I play in the interaction?

    The challenge is to take responsibility. Addictions and people are not excuses for our behavior in the present moment.

    It is helpful to learn how to turn anxieties about your past into definable and concrete issues so that the results can be viewed in a new light. Only then is change possible---once awareness has been achieved.


    This message is a reply to:
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  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9765
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 52 of 108 (401173)
    05-18-2007 4:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
    05-12-2007 3:18 PM


    Phats 8 Steps for Recovery
    Ringo writes:

    What is "worship of God"?

    We can't do anything "for" God. We probably can't do anything to "impress" God.

    Isn't "worship" just doing what He wants us to do? If we love God by loving our neighbours as ourselves, don't we "worship" Him in a similar way?

    So, if addictions are a "disorder of worship", or a displacement of our worship from it's proper "target", isn't the proper target our fellow human beings?

    It seems contradictory that 12-step programs emphasize help from others, while the "disorder of worship" idea implies help to others.

    Let me attempt to break the steps down into a secular, non-God approach and see what we have left....(I invented this one entirely off the top of my head...so it can be subject to change and review . :)

    Step by Step Support Group/Accountability Process: Copyright by Phat :)

    1. We admitted we were powerless over our addictions and compulsive behaviors. We came to believe that Counseling and/or a Support Group would provide wisdom higher than our own.
    Talk it out with others.

    2. We made a decision to commit ourselves to the group until we had worked through each step and until we had journaled and completed our inventories.
    Face your fears and hangups....seek to understand them. Wisdom comes through others who have traveled the same road.
    3. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
    Face your fears. Talk about your past. Come to terms with where you have been, who you are, and where you plan on going.
    4. We admitted to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

    5. We were entirely ready to allow change in our minds and hearts and through introspection, honesty, and discipline remove all these defects of character.

    6. We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

    7. We made direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

    8. We continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

    So what do you think of my secularized step program? How would you improve it? What did I leave out?

    Edited by Phat, : spelling


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by ringo, posted 05-12-2007 3:18 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    (1)
    Message 53 of 108 (401197)
    05-18-2007 5:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
    05-18-2007 4:24 PM


    Re: Phats 8 Steps for Recovery
    Phat writes:

    So what do you think of my secularized step program? How would you improve it? What did I leave out?

    Here's my version:

    • Examine what you've done and what you're doing that harms yourself or other people. Try to fix your past screw-ups and try not to screw up the same way in the future.

    I originally had two steps, but I asked myself, "Why does it have to be stepwise?"


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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by Phat, posted 05-18-2007 4:24 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9765
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 54 of 108 (401341)
    05-19-2007 8:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 40 by nator
    05-11-2007 7:51 AM


    Re: Step 1: Go Dancing
    Nator writes:

    Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy sounds like the ticket.

    Tell me more. Have you ever gone through it or know anyone who has?

    In response to Ringo, the steps are important because there is usually a definite sequence to learning about oneself and being empowered to change. If it was all as easy as self realization, people would be fixing their own problems.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by nator, posted 05-11-2007 7:51 AM nator has responded

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     Message 56 by ringo, posted 05-19-2007 11:33 AM Phat has responded
     Message 57 by nator, posted 05-19-2007 7:40 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9765
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 55 of 108 (401342)
    05-19-2007 8:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
    05-18-2007 5:06 PM


    Re: Phats 8 Steps for Recovery
    Its important to enlist the help of others. A Support Group works for some people if they commit to it and honestly answer the questions and consider the answers. For other people, a counselor works better than a group.

    I dont really like my 8 Steps. I think God is a necessary component of my recovery process, but I couldnt at this point tell you why except to suggest that I am now willfully becoming addicted to religion. ;)


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    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 56 of 108 (401353)
    05-19-2007 11:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
    05-19-2007 8:33 AM


    Phat writes:

    ... the steps are important because there is usually a definite sequence to learning about oneself and being empowered to change.

    The problem I have with the stepwise approach is that it can give the (false) sense of being "finished". Like the scientific method, things have to be done in a certain order, but it should be understood that it is a cycle, not a single process.

    If it was all as easy as self realization, people would be fixing their own problems.

    Of course. A lot of people do. :)


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    This message is a reply to:
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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2175 days)
    Posts: 12961
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 57 of 108 (401418)
    05-19-2007 7:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
    05-19-2007 8:33 AM


    Re: Step 1: Go Dancing
    quote:
    If it was all as easy as self realization, people would be fixing their own problems.

    The thing is, self-realization is the hard part.

    Changing one's behavior after enlightenment is relatively easy.

    At least, it was in my case.

    Another thing is that you don't just have one moment of self-realization. Once a person gains the skill of introspection, it hopefully continues until the end of their days.

    It can be summed up thusly:

    When I know better, I do better."


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 54 by Phat, posted 05-19-2007 8:33 AM Phat has not yet responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9765
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 58 of 108 (401551)
    05-20-2007 4:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
    05-19-2007 11:33 AM


    Watch Your Step
    Ringo writes:

    The problem I have with the stepwise approach is that it can give the (false) sense of being "finished".

    Thats why Step 10 is so important. We continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. The process is lifelong, but the meetings and the 12 steps need not be.

    For me, at least----the 12 steps brought me out of a wormhole of past feelings/present behavior and gave me a new set of references between how I used to deal with things versus how I now choose to deal with things.

    Wilhelm Reich advocated psychophysical psychology whereupon he believed that past emotions were frozen in character armor. The point is that some feelings can be repressed...even physically....and self realization will never uncover subconscious repression.

    The 12 step group is but one possible solution for dealing with the past, in that a support group offers...well...support. As for the character armor, there are psychotherapists who specialize in treating such stuff. Alexander Lowen was one such practitioner.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 05-19-2007 11:33 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by ringo, posted 05-20-2007 5:15 PM Phat has responded
     Message 60 by Asgara, posted 05-20-2007 6:01 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 59 of 108 (401555)
    05-20-2007 5:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
    05-20-2007 4:15 PM


    Re: Watch Your Step
    Phat writes:

    Thats why Step 10 is so important. We continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

    Interesting that "admitted we were wrong" is in the past tense. ;)

    For me, at least----the 12 steps brought me out of a wormhole of past feelings/present behavior and gave me a new set of references between how I used to deal with things versus how I now choose to deal with things.

    Again, that sounds more like a "new beginning", a one-time "conversion" instead of an on-going process.

    The 12 step group is but one possible solution for dealing with the past....

    While examining the past has its value, shouldn't dealing with addictions emphasize the present and the future? Do you really need to know "why" you drink, gamble, etc.? Isn't it more important to recognize the effects of your behaviour in the present?


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    This message is a reply to:
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    Asgara
    Member
    Posts: 1782
    From: Wisconsin, USA
    Joined: 05-10-2003


    Message 60 of 108 (401562)
    05-20-2007 6:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
    05-20-2007 4:15 PM


    Re: Watch Your Step
    For me, at least----the 12 steps brought me out of a wormhole of past feelings/present behavior and gave me a new set of references between how I used to deal with things versus how I now choose to deal with things.

    Out of curiosity Phat, how long have you been a part of this group? How long has it taken you to come to this realization about how you deal with things?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by Phat, posted 05-20-2007 4:15 PM Phat has responded

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