EvC Forum: Are we prisoners of sin

Email This Thread

Newer Topic | Older Topic

Author

Topic: Are we prisoners of sin

Phat

Member

Posts: 18348

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

Member Rating: 1.0

Normal Thread Display

Message 41 of 454 (504720)
04-02-2009 7:28 AM

Topic Synopsis

Cedre writes:

what made Paul so confident and stable in his ministry when simultaneously he complained about sin, why was he so certain that he would escape destruction?

Because He believed that a power greater than himself would restore him to sanity.

I think these are honest questions that everyone asks on the odd occasion. But before we can set out with this topic there is one question I'm sure that will almost certainly always pop up, and that is, "is there such a thing as sin?" Well I think there is by definition sin is a transgression of God's will, missing the mark set up by God. This is what sin is and considering the Ten Commandments and considering our present states I would say that sin is altogether alive and doing well....

Why not add that for an unbeliever, sin certainly does not exist as a believer understands it. (Unless you wish to advance the argument that God exists irregardless of what a person believes....)

Coragyps writes:

I say there is no such thing as a god, so it is impossible to transgress against the will of one of them. There are plenty of actions that are against society and therefore fairly universally frowned upon, but "sin" is a fictional religious concept.

So could we agree that each one of us has a standard of behavior and action that we know we should live up to, but that all of us miss the mark on a regular basis?

My point is that any human worth their salt should have a standard higher than what they actually accomplish on a daily basis.

Cedre writes:

At this point knowing that right and wrong exists is a universal feeling.....

Given that we interpret Right to mean that type of altruistic behavior that benefits the common good and hurts no one and that Wrong is a selfish and greedy emotion that disregards the livelihood of others.....

Coragyps writes:

Right and wrong most certainly exist - we humans are social creatures living next to each other, and we all have various codes of right and wrong. "Sin" is what I reject as a meaningless concept. If this thread is about "sin" it must also be about gods, because the very concept of sin depends on some supernatural entity to {offend/be separated from/disappoint}. I can do something that causes another person pain, and feel bad and experience regret that I did it, and I can try to do better the next time, but all of that can happen without any involvement of imaginary overseers!

Granny Magda writes:

I agree that a sense of right and wrong are pretty much universal, but the actual details of what is considered right and what is considered wrong differ from culture to culture and from person to person. The Bible does indeed attempt to shed light on what is right and wrong, but there will always be those who disagree with some of its teachings on such matters. Those of us who do not regard the Bible as an authority are free to make our own judgments about its morality or lack thereof.

Cedre writes:

indeed Adam had received a direct warning straight out of the horses mouth (Gen 2:16), and despite this clear-cut warning he still managed to disobeyed.

Can we agree that for the purposes of this discussion sin can be defined as disobedience to our own innate belief of right and wrong?

Why must these sorts of questions always be answered with the Bible? Is there anyway that we can suspend our respective beliefs for a moment and discuss the concepts philosophically?

As an example, assuming that God foreknows everything, did God foreknow that humans would disobey Him?

And if God does not exist, are we still responsible for setting the mark higher than any human is capable of attaining on a daily basis or should we set the mark exactly as high as we typically go?

Replies to this message:
	Message 42 by Cedre, posted 04-02-2009 8:47 AM		Phat has not replied

Phat

Member

Posts: 18348

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

Member Rating: 1.0

Normal Thread Display

Message 53 of 454 (504749)
04-02-2009 12:34 PM

Reply to: Message 46 by Cedre
04-02-2009 10:53 AM

Was Hell Created By God?

Lets take this hypothetical argument into a believers territory, shall we?

Why would God foreknow that Adam would disobey, thus setting up original sin and thus bringing about a need for jesus to fix the choice made on behalf of humanity?

Next, if humans can never be good based on their own fallen nature, are you telling me that God has to do it for us by offering us the gift of salvation? If so, does this mean that God is offering us the choice of Life or Death only because WE chose Death as an alternative option initially?

Sounds like this means that we have to believe the story the way the fundamentalists tell it and basically have to either accept Jesus or go to Hell, right? Now it gets tricky.

Was Hell created by God or by humans?

This message is a reply to:
	Message 46 by Cedre, posted 04-02-2009 10:53 AM		Cedre has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 04-02-2009 12:52 PM	Phat has not replied
	Message 56 by thingamabob, posted 04-02-2009 2:53 PM	Phat has not replied
	Message 60 by Phage0070, posted 04-02-2009 5:21 PM	Phat has not replied

Phat

Member

Posts: 18348

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

Member Rating: 1.0

Normal Thread Display

Message 115 of 454 (504972)
04-06-2009 6:33 AM

Reply to: Message 112 by Peg
04-06-2009 5:55 AM

Re: Conscience

Peg writes:

So this shows that the man had a conscience that told them they had done wrong. If they did not know they had done wrong then they would not have hid from God, nor would they have been afraid. They knew beforehand because their conscience told them so.

The way that I see the story, be it literal, allegorical, or symbolic, is that before the snake incident, humans were not aware of the definition of evil except in terms of disobedience.

The conscience arose from being willfully disobedient.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 112 by Peg, posted 04-06-2009 5:55 AM		Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 119 by Cedre, posted 04-06-2009 7:00 AM	Phat has not replied
	Message 120 by Peg, posted 04-06-2009 7:03 AM	Phat has not replied

Phat

Member

Posts: 18348

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

Member Rating: 1.0

Normal Thread Display

Message 145 of 454 (505064)
04-07-2009 3:20 AM

Reply to: Message 134 by Cedre
04-06-2009 10:12 AM

We All Sin, but its a matter of interpretation

Cedre writes:

1. Do you lie? How many times have you lied to save your butt?

Phat writes:

I rarely consciously lie...although i often omit all of the facts, especially when dealing with our workplace soap opera. More likely, I subconsciously lie to myself, usually because as Jack Nicholson said, "You (me) can't handle the truth!!"

I believe that some of us are convicted more so than others. It largely depends on how we were raised.

2. Do you steal, regardless of how small in value an item is? If someone in front of you in a crowd somewhere dropped something of great worth and you were the only one who noticed would you return that item to the owner or nip it?

Phat writes:

Both. Most of the time i return it without question. There was one time I remember in particular...I was a 7-11 clerk. Some guy walked in and as he was paying for his purchase, a bunch of money fell out of his wallet. he picked it up and left. About twenty minutes later, I saw some of the money in the cigarette display....which he had missed. What I did, (since I knew the Boss would simply keep it if I turned it in) is put it in an envelope and kept the envelope in my pocket for one week. the customer never returned to claim it...so I kept it. Often, stealing is also a matter of perspective. Did the U.S. steal much of the continent or was it simply our time to occupy where we would live? etc..etc...

3. Do you look at women with lust? That is do you naughty daydreams about an attractive girl you've seen or met?

Phat writes:

I have daydreams, but they are harmless in my mind. I always make sure never to objectify the person and to dream about them with respect.

4. Have you ever wanted something that belonged to someone else and if the chance to have it presented itself would you take it by the horns, or walk away?

Phat writes:

Yes, I covet. I am so darn mad that so many people have more than I do!! I never seem to worry about the ones who have less, however.

5. Would you give a hundred bucks away if someone on the street asked for it?

Phat writes:

Depends on the specific situation and how much i myself needed the hundred bucks. Survival of the fittest, you know.....

6. If you got into a fight with someone, and you know this person is just plain wrong and that you're right would you forgive this person anyway anyway and be the first to apologize in fact?

Phat writes:

Yes, I have done this before.

5. The bible says no greater love can a man display than to lay his life down for a friend. Would you do this?

Phat writes:

I would like to think so, but realistically I would probably be a big coward.

I believe in God, however, and I believe that God understands me better than I do myself. I am willing to take any discipline that must come my way.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 134 by Cedre, posted 04-06-2009 10:12 AM		Cedre has not replied

Phat

Member

Posts: 18348

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

Member Rating: 1.0

Normal Thread Display

Message 184 of 454 (505225)
04-09-2009 6:16 AM

Reply to: Message 182 by Cedre
04-09-2009 5:37 AM

Re: The Truth Will Set You Free in deed!

Cedre writes:

It feels like no matter how many times certain people see or hear the truth they will still no accept it, and this is exactly what's happening here. You will always have a counterargument to everything I say even if it makes a lot of sense.

Thats why we are in a debate forum! We are not here to all agree with each other and hold hands and sing songs, are we?

Personally, I grow more when challenged by people rather than when everyone says "good point! You are wise!" or
"Amen, Brother! Testify!"

Also....explain to me exactly what this truth is. Is the truth Jesus? If so, I agree with you that Jesus is true, alive, and eternal.

I still like to debate and argue, however!

I have been known to take a side in an argument opposite of my actual beliefs just for the practice.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 182 by Cedre, posted 04-09-2009 5:37 AM		Cedre has not replied

Phat

Member

Posts: 18348

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

Member Rating: 1.0

Normal Thread Display

Message 227 of 454 (505470)
04-12-2009 5:38 AM

Reply to: Message 195 by Rahvin
04-09-2009 5:33 PM

Re: Inconsistency

Rahvin writes:

determining that the Bible is nothing more than mythology is a reasonable conclusion...

Assuming you are right, how then to we know God or have a relationship with God? The story does serve a purpose, you know. If we scrap the blueprints, all we have left is human speculation and philosophy.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 195 by Rahvin, posted 04-09-2009 5:33 PM		Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 243 by Straggler, posted 04-12-2009 3:43 PM	Phat has not replied
	Message 244 by Rahvin, posted 04-12-2009 4:06 PM	Phat has not replied

Date format: mm-dd-yyyy

Timezone: ET (US)

Newer Topic | Older Topic

Do Nothing Button

0 online now:
Newest Member:	ChatGPT
Post Volume:	Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0