We know there's a God because...

Iano, please don't clutter up another thread with this "How do you know reality is really real?" nonsense. You were making so much more sense (and being so much more interesting) before you descended into the solipsistic mire again.
A five year old child knows that other people are real, dammit, a bloody chimp knows that others are real. If this is the kind of argument you have to indulge in to prop up your beliefs, it doesn't do you any favours.
Please stop the madness!

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Mutate and Survive

Edited by bluegenes, : Realized objective reality could be found via the peek button

I could be a brain in a jar imagining absolutely EVERYTHING including you and every other conscious being. The WHOLE 'reality' I percieve could ALL be false. This is true.BUT if we get past the rather pointless 'everything is a figment of my elaborate imagination and there is no way to eliminate this possibility' argument and accept that there are actually individual consciousnesses then your argument falls apart in the manner that I have described.For your argument, that independently corroborated physical evidence is no more valid than persoal belief, to hold true any one of us MUST assume that EVERYTHING we experience is false and that no other consciousnesses are inhabiting the reality that we perceive.How very nihilist of you.For my argument to hold true it requires only that there is more than one consciousness perceiving the same external reality.You don't believe that you are a brain in a jar. As such all the arguments regarding corroboration and verification available to phyical reality but not personal belief hold true.The whole basis of your argument is in shreds.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

If we accept your false logic that apparent design = designer then what exactly is it that suggests that this is an "invisible designer" or God as opposed to a superior alien civlisation?You have asserted design as evidence for gods but not put forward any argument at all.Atheists can believe in design without believing in gods.

The point of the 'pointless argument' is the point. You cannot get past it without assuming 'objective' reality objective. Having done that, you cannot point to anything within the assumed reality to verify your assumption accurate. That would be pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. That doesn't render your assumption other than an assumption. Assuming I exist in order to render my own argument void is more bootstrap thinking on your part A leap of logicEdited by iano, : No reason given.

Iano
I assume nothing. I merely consider the logical consequences of the two possibilities.IF there IS an objective reality inhabited by multiple consciousnesses then independently corroborated physical evidence is evidently superior to personal belief in establishing what is true and what is not. As previously detailed.Do you disagree with that? If so on what grounds?IF no objective reality exists and I am a figment of your imagination then your God and the all the rest of your reality is also a figment of your imagiation and you will never be able to establish otherwise.Do you disagree with that? If so on what grounds?Either way what is definitely not possible is a reality experienced by multiple independent consciousnesses in which personal belief and independently corroborated physical evidence are equally valid.Logically you cannot have it both ways without internally contradicting yourself.The only way you can equate the validity of personal belief with the shared experience of 'red' and it's physical properties is by denying that I exist to experience either. Edited by Straggler, : I cannot spell

Please keep discussion focused on the topic. Complaints should be posted at Windsor castle. I'm going to be enforcing this request.No replies, please.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

If you'd like to discuss the nature of reality, please propose a new thread over at [forum=-25].

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

And your rebuttal to the assertion is?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Rebuttals normally address evidence or reasoning or both. Since you've provided neither as yet, there is nothing to rebut.Replies subsequent to DrJones's Message 111 raise a number of objections that you can use to introduce your evidence and reasoning.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I have to add a third alternative, which is creators, plural. This isn't a trivial point in relation to the O.P., because creators, plural, are almost infinitely more likely than just one creator (any random number of them is just as likely as one).It's a highly subjective mistake often made by people from cultures that are historically monotheistic to think of potential designers of life, or creators of the earth/universe, as being lonely individuals.So, on this basis alone, it would seem impossible to know that there is a God by just examining the world around us.That ends the discussion, really, unless Percy chooses to amend the O.P. by saying "God or Gods".So those who look at nature and see design with a teleological origin can only argue for this as evidence of teleology, nothing else.

There is no requirement for them to be true to make my point which was that since all cultures have been religious all cultures appear to assume a higher realm of intelligence present in the universe. The implication is that there must be some validity to the acclaimed miraculous powers evidenced among them. As well, the implication is that the only likely reason for them to all be religious would be observance of the wonders of creation, some of which they even worshipped. I've not been arguing that it proves God. My point all along is that it evidences a supernatural realm whether good or evil. Most cultures see some supreme being as the chief god of all creation. Again, I didn't say it proves anything. All I said is that it is evidence of the probability of the supernatural.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Cold Foreign Object: Might I ask what your methodology for reaching a conclusion is? Because if it is anything like CTD’s, observation_conclusion, as established in post 98, then I think I see the reason behind the confusion. Simply replace your uses of the word conclusion with conjecture and there is no longer an argument.Just an outline will do, i.e., Observation_initial hypothesis_experiment_ further hypothesis_ further experiment_gather loose ends_initial conclusion_peer review_answer refutations_ conclusion. Where the gathering of loose ends is an unknown number of repetitions of further hypothesis and further experiment. And all the while with the very real chance that the conclusion will be “no”.It would be a real shame if this whole argument was semantics.And yes, this is a real question.Edited by lyx2no, : Clarity.

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Kindly

Dr Jones, I assumed all here were apprised enough on the fact that human cultures have been religious since the recording of human history began that the claim is more than assertion. Most here so far have agreed to that.Anyone having the most basic knowledge of world history are aware that all of the major world kingdoms have been highly religious. I'm sure there's none of us here who aren't aware that no matter where one might penetrate into the deepest jungles, into the icy frozen lands of the Eskamoes or the nomadic desert tribes or to the highest civilizations, the cultures are religious and have always been so.That this knowledge is so common, to go back into history and name all the major cultures and world kingdoms, citing their respective beliefs would require another topic which I consider a waste of time. Even if you were to come up with some exception it would not be sufficient to negate my point. LOL!

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Its just that I am wise enough not to be swayed by a cult. Anyway...getting back to our topic....We don't know that there is a God, but many of us have a fervent belief that God exists. And we are wise enough not to glorify any human leader that purports to be our Messiah, either.