Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Better check out the meaning of the word "Paradise." I believe you'll find it means something like, "Forest Lawn," a well manicured grounds, i.e. a cemetary. So no matter how you slice it, that verse in Luke is rather grim.The Thief says: "Jesus, remember me when you Rule."And Jesus replies: "Today I'd say, You'll be with me in the cemetary."See how one word makes such a difference?Common sense may not be as fun as fantasy, but it's a lot more Real.[This message has been edited by doctrbill, 08-09-2003]

Whatever religious people may have made of the word, "paradise" was descriptive of manicured grounds.Greek paradeisos, from Hebrew pardes = Park, Garden, Ground. Translated in King James OT as forest, and orchard.{Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible}.See also Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible which reveals that paradeisos means "Park," and comes from a Hebrew word meaning, you guessed it: "Park."How about that!?In case you are wondering whether the ancient Hebrews understood the word "paradise" as defined by the dictionary you quoted ... they did not. Characterizing the home of the righteous dead as paradise did not occur until much later in Jewish Apocalyptic writings. The concept is fantastic and accepted on faith. We know that it was, eventually, widely embraced but we cannot be sure exactly when the concept was put forward; and we cannot be sure that Jesus accepted it. We do know, however, that both Jesus and the men crucified with him, became dead. We know Jesus went the cemetary. But since poor criminals were often sent to Gehenna, perhaps the thief took comfort in Jesus' assurance that they would both receive a civilized burial.------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

Perhaps, but the earlier (Hebrew < Persian) use of it in the Bible does not does not appear to contain any supernatural implication. In fact, the word (pardes) is used only three times in the Bible.It is once translated forest in the book of Nehemiah (2:8), where it is identified as a source of timber. It was the "pardes" of Artaxerxes (King of kings), so I would imagine it well manicured.It is twice translated "orchard" (KJV). First in the book of Ecclesiates (2:4). The author, purportedly Solomon, is talking about his accomplishments.
He says, Some translations say, 'parks.'It appears the third and last time (protestant canon) in an erotic poem from the Song of Solomon. Here, it is a pomegranite orchard. In the Song (of Solomon), pomegranites are a metaphor of female body parts. This may indicate a beginning of the "spiritual" interpretation of Paradise. Other than this last, there is no OT suggestion that it was understood to mean anything other than - well kept, park-like, garden-of-eden type, grounds.I just can't get the image of Forest Lawn out of my mind. Imagine how this term may have become associated with the afterlife. The mere establishment of manicured interrment parks might have been enough to start the trend.I would not be surprised if Jesus bought into the paradise/afterlife myth. But I don't think it's necessary to saddle him with that. He did indeed go from the cross to a well kept grounds. A garden. A park. A cemetary. Prophecy and fulfillment. Post haste.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

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truthlover message 34: "... I think it's pretty clear that what Jesus was referring to in Luke was the afterlife, not a cemetary."

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doctrbill message 38: "I don't think it's necessary to saddle him with that. He did indeed go from the cross to ... A cemetary."

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truthlover message 39: "... the issue is not whether Jesus bought into the paradise/afterlife myth (as you put it), but whether Luke did."

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I believe the issue is whether the word paradise was intended to indicate some mythical habitation of the righteous dead in an afterlife. It was certainly never used that way in the OT, as we have seen. The word appears in the Bible only six times, three of these in the NT. In the OT it is translated as forest and orchard. In the NT is not translated at all, only transliterated; so we have a bit of a challenge on our hands. We must consider the context of its use in the NT while keeping in mind how it was understood by OT writers. Look at the context here:

• Luke simply states what Jesus presumably said. "You will be with me in Paradise."
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• Paul (2 Corinthians 12:3) speaks of it as if it were a mythical place. He seems to be mocking a man who claimed to have been there.
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• And John (Revelation 2:7) speaks of it as if it were the garden of Eden, "the tree of life, which is in midst of the paradise of God."

Compare this with the writings of Ezekiel, whom John often quotes. Ezekiel seems to use the expressions, garden of God and garden of Eden interchangeably. "... all the trees of Eden ... that were in the garden of God." Ezekiel 31:8,9; He envisions the rebuilding of Israel (recently devastated by Babylon) and the tilling of its desolate fields saying, "This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden;" {36:35}Was Jesus referring to a place in the afterlife? If so, where is the evidence to support that view? I see no evidence. The idea is obviously traditional but apparently not well founded in scripture. And while I would not begrudge a dying man his fantasy, I would be more comfortable following a Lord who is strong enough to face the finality of his fate.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?