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Author Topic:   Biblical Coherency (Rob and Iceage Only)
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3410 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 1 of 30 (416991)
08-18-2007 11:20 PM


In another thread Rob writes

"I invite you to put the God of the bible on trial and find a contradiction..."

In the Bible there are numerous technical mistakes, copyist errors, logical contradictions, numerical inconsistencies, redactions, philosophical incoherencies, etc.

Rob expressed willingness to discuss this issue further and demonstrate that these are realy just "paradoxes".

For the sake of clarity and focus I would like to discuss a single issue in this topic.



How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?


Some miscellaneous random specifics to illustrate the point:

Direct commanded by Moses God's prophet...

Exodus 32 writes:

Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.

Heads on pikes displayed for the Lord ... yikes!

Numbers 25 writes:

And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'

Keep the virgins for yourselves (not the kind of love Jesus was implying)

Numbers 31 writes:

Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Slavery or Death and rape (For God's sake keep the plunder which specifically includes women)

Deuteronomy 20 writes:

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Little children are not be spared.. no mercy no pity let alone love.

Ezekiel 9:5-7 writes:

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

Curses indeed...

Jeremiah 48 writes:

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.

And just to further underscore this point there are a few places where the Hebrew leaders accorded a measure of mercy to their enemies only to incite outrage by God and we are informed that this God will destroy those who show mercy to their enemies. For example Saul spares the life of Agag and Samuel curses Saul

1 Samuel 15 writes:

But Saul and the people spared Agag...The word of the Lord came to Samuel: 'I repent that I have made Saul king; for he has turned back from following me, and has not performed my commandments...

Samuel informs Saul that God had commanded the genocide

1 Samuel 15 writes:

And the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, 'Go, utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed...Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you from being king.

Now Samuel being a Holy Hit Man shows Saul just what God had in mind

1 Samuel 15 writes:

Then Samuel said, 'Bring here to me Agag the king of the Amalekites...And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in Gilgal

There are other instances where God's alleged orders for complete Genocide was not carried out, invoking God wrath.

If God is outraged over acts of mercy extended to the enemies of his people, just how does this fit with God's other command of loving your enemies.

Note I don't want a Great Debate as I don't have the time and appreciate the input of others and am not here to win or show someone up but to learn and mix thought with thought

Edited by AdminPD, : Names added to title.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 11 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 10:57 AM iceage has responded

  
AdminNem
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 30 (417002)
08-19-2007 12:39 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 2:01 AM AdminNem has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3343 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 3 of 30 (417029)
08-19-2007 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNem
08-19-2007 12:39 AM


Hi NJ... Iceage left out something important in his request... www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=712&m=82#83 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=712&m=82#83">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=712&m=82#83

I specifically agreed to a great debate between Iceage and myself only. I can't adress an issue such as this with the mob ready to question every step. It's Iceage and I so that we can stay on the points, or no deal...

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNem, posted 08-19-2007 12:39 AM AdminNem has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 2:09 AM Rob has responded
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3343 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 4 of 30 (417032)
08-19-2007 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
08-18-2007 11:20 PM


www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=31&t=91&m=3#3 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=31&t=91&m=3#3">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=31&t=91&m=3#3
This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3410 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 5 of 30 (417035)
08-19-2007 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rob
08-19-2007 2:01 AM


Whose to say there won't be a mob ready to support you? I would really like to hear other Christian's thoughts on this - for example folks like Ana, Phat, NJ, PDawn, pbee and Buzz.

Nevertheless, fine i guess, but not my preference.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 2:01 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3343 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 6 of 30 (417037)
08-19-2007 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by iceage
08-19-2007 2:09 AM


Iceage:
Nevertheless, fine i guess, but not my preference.

Very well then...

Moderator, do you have the technology to translate this into a smaller arena?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 2:09 AM iceage has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1423 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 30 (417059)
08-19-2007 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rob
08-19-2007 2:01 AM


how exactly do you put anyone on trial without questioning every step?

wimp.

Apologies - Topic was moved to the Great Debate forum after your post. Since the discussion is between Rob and Iceage and those they invite, you probably won't receive a response.
Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Apology


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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 8 of 30 (417060)
08-19-2007 8:58 AM


Thread moved here from the Bible Study forum.
  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 9 of 30 (417062)
08-19-2007 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Rob
08-19-2007 2:11 AM


Moved to Great Debate
Rob and Iceage

This thread is now in the Great Debate forum so it is limited to you two and whomever you decide to invite into the discussion. This should suffice for limiting participation.

Enjoy!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 2:11 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3410 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 10 of 30 (417064)
08-19-2007 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
08-19-2007 8:54 AM


brennakimi writes:

how exactly do you put anyone on trial without questioning every step

Thank you. I see no purpose in a "Great Debate". It is about the issues and ideas - not Rob and Iceage, but here we are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-19-2007 8:54 AM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3343 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 11 of 30 (417074)
08-19-2007 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
08-18-2007 11:20 PM


Iceage, your entire premise of contradiction depends upon a presupposition; that Life is only physical, and that within that life, justice and mercy must cohere. It is a 'time' issue also... You may ask, 'where is the justice for a child caught in the crossfire of his father's crime?'

Iceage:

If God is outraged over acts of mercy extended to the enemies of his people, just how does this fit with God's other command of loving your enemies.

It does appear that for justice to be just, it must be uncompromising.

Ezekiel 18:4
For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Notice God is talking about the soul. Not the flesh...

All flesh will die, but not all souls will die, and it is in this eternal reality that the proper context is found.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

But justice to the guilty is only out of mercy for the victim. It is the victemization that makes it truely wrong. You're equating physical death with justice. And you cannot understand why innocents die. Who says they do in the ultimate sense?

There is a resurrection to be had. Nothing will bring them back whether they deserved to live or not, except the ressurection. Without it, there is no justice.

If you want to see the resolution to the problem you must look at the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. That is where all of these realites converge.

On the cross you have absolute (eternal) justice being carried out. But in [time], it is the most unjust thing that can be.
You have absolute (eternal) mercy being given. But in time, it is the most unmerciful thing that can be.

The resurrection resolves the dispute between whether life is ultimately physical or spiritual. It is the emperical evidence of the spiritual reality and coheres the two...

In the short term, these historical events seem foolish and contradictory. But in the long run, God restores all things.

It has been done.

Jesus was crucified. He rose from the dead.

What more proof of eternity, God's absolute justice, and His absolute mercy could you ask for?

He paid for your sins, so that justice was met, but that you may live.

If you owed a huge court fine that was not within your ability to pay, and it was paid without cost to you, by someone else. Justice was still met. Whether the lesson was learned depends upon the severity of the sacrifice.

What if you deserved the death of your soul? What if your friend actually died for you, so that you could live?

What if his physical life was so powerful, that it was equal to the life of your own soul?

It's strange really... you demand an accounting of justice and mercy in the here and now. But then it is gone...

All of this will be gone. The sun will burn out, though the moon's deteriorating orbit will likely destroy us first. And even if that is averted by some as yet fictional strategy, the inevitable heat death and entropic decay of our universe will ensue.

And then what will become of justice and mercy Iceage?

As Konrad Adenauer,the former German Cancellor said to Billy Graham durring the aftermath of World War II, “Outside of the resurrection of Jesus Christ I know no other hope for mankind”.

He had just finished asking Billy if he really believed in the resurrection. Billy said, 'Chancellor, it I did not belive in the ressurection of Jesus Christ, I would have no Gospel to preach".

And both of these men realize iceage, that if the resurection is not reality (God), then it is utterly futile.

The Apostle Paul did as well:

1 Corinthians 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God (reality), for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

So, what Paul is saying is that if we believe in the resurrection and it is (in reality) not true... then we are the most foolish people on the face of the earth.

So, knowing that... why believe that there is justice of any kind other than in God's hands?

If justice and mercy are not in the hands of reality, then what is the point of your question?

De 32:35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them.

Isa 61:8 "For I, the Lord, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity. In my faithfulness I will reward them and make an everlasting covenant with them.

Re 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

What reward do you deserve iceage?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iceage, posted 08-18-2007 11:20 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 8:52 PM Rob has responded
 Message 13 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 9:03 PM Rob has responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3410 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 12 of 30 (417185)
08-19-2007 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Rob
08-19-2007 10:57 AM


Answering the wrong question.
Rob writes:

Iceage, your entire premise of contradiction depends upon a presupposition; that Life is only physical, and that within that life, justice and mercy must cohere. It is a 'time' issue also... You may ask, 'where is the justice for a child caught in the crossfire of his father's crime?'

Rob thanks for your post. However it answered the wrong question and avoided the topic. You answered the question "Why is there apparent injustice in this world" or "Why does God appear to be unmerciful at times in this world".

I will repost the topic...

Iceage writes:

How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?

Therefore I ask again is the Bible coherent by teaching....



  • Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

  • Do not use force against an evil man

  • In everything do to others as you would have them do to you

  • Do not return evil for evil

  • Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you


    and also then also command and teach by example...



  • Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood

  • Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel

  • Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor

  • Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves

    Is this a coherent? Is there an unavoidable contradiction in philosophy presented?

    Rob writes:

    You demand an accounting of justice and mercy in the here and now

    No. I am not asking about justice or mercy. I am asking does the above present a contradiction of thought and outlook.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 10:57 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 11:44 PM iceage has responded

      
  • iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3410 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 13 of 30 (417187)
    08-19-2007 9:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Rob
    08-19-2007 10:57 AM


    Post 12 is the primary thrust of this topic. However I must make short comment on your off topic material in Post 11.

    Rob writes:

    You're equating physical death with justice. And you cannot understand why innocents die...

    In the short term, these historical events seem foolish and contradictory. But in the long run, God restores all things...

    why believe that there is justice of any kind other than in God's hands

    You are a stones throw away from a Biblical version of radical Islamic Suicide Bombing theology. To summarize: It is ok to kill innocents because God will make all things right in the after life.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 10:57 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 11:38 PM iceage has responded

      
    Rob 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3343 days)
    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 06-01-2006


    Message 14 of 30 (417227)
    08-19-2007 11:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by iceage
    08-19-2007 9:03 PM


    Iceage:
    You are a stones throw away from a Biblical version of radical Islamic Suicide Bombing theology. To summarize: It is ok to kill innocents because God will make all things right in the after life.

    Who says it's ok?

    It is not ok...

    God never said it was...

    He said just the opposite...

    What God does understand, and so do you...

    Is that defiance in spite of terms of peace offered by the assaulting party, require the storming of a stronghold to exterminate the utterly defiant...

    This often results in callateral damage...

    But the alternative...

    Is to allow the defiant to overthrow order without (our burden) care for any of your questions.

    God will set things right, because justice is a reality that we don't have to take by force as a terrorist would do...

    He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

    Do you really believe that these ancient nations were just hip village people smoking dope at the plaza and wanting to all get along?

    Do you really believe?

    Do you really?

    That it is the same thing?

    If so, we have nothing to discuss...

    For your defiance...

    Blinds your eyes from reasonable discussion............

    Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 9:03 PM iceage has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Rob 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3343 days)
    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 06-01-2006


    Message 15 of 30 (417228)
    08-19-2007 11:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by iceage
    08-19-2007 8:52 PM


    Re: Answering the wrong question.
    Iceage:
    I am asking does the above present a contradiction of thought and outlook.

    No, it sure doesn't...


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 8:52 PM iceage has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by iceage, posted 08-20-2007 1:49 AM Rob has responded

        
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