Is the Bible the Word of God?

"Further proof that it is the word of good is in it's prophecies. The prophecies in the bible have come true in minute detail 100%. When I said harmony I meant that it appears as if it was written by the same person throughout the entire book."You REALLY are going to have to show that the prophesies are genuine. This involves that little understood thing called "empirical evidence" & not belief.------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

"Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States! "The prophesy is plainly wrong.The last of the indiginous Egyptian Dynasties (30th Sebennytic) was Nectanebo II, ending in 343 BC. Over 150 years after your dating.Also"According to Egyptian law, Cleopatra was forced to have a consort, who was either a brother or a son, no matter what age, throughout her reign. She was married to her younger brother Ptolemy XIII when he was twelve, however she soon dropped his name from any official documents regardless of the Ptolemaic insistence that the male presence be first among co-rulers. She also had her own portrait and name on coins of that time, ignoring her brother's. When Cleopatra became co-regent, her world was crumbling down around her. ""d. 44 B.C., king of ancient Egypt (47—44 B.C.), the last of the Macedonian dynasty, but for his sister, Cleopatra. He was a child when his brother Ptolemy XII drowned. Julius Caesar married him to Cleopatra in 47 B.C. and made him joint ruler with her; she later had him murdered."So Ptolemy XII & XIII co-ruled Egypt with Cleopatra, albeit briefly. This was nearly 500 years after your prophesy. True, they were of the Macedonian Dynasty, however, they were born in Alexandria. They were Egyptian Princes.

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-13-2001]

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-13-2001]

Please re-read my text. You posted whilst I was still adding stuff. I should have got it all together first "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)."The prophecy never mentioned rulers, just Egyptian princes.Therefore the prophesy is wrong because there WERE Egyptian princes post prophecy, whether they ruled is neither here nor there.

I've given you quotes showing Cleopatra had brother ie Princes, ANY son of a Macedonian Dynasty Pharoah was a prince. They ruled for nearly 300 years. Here is the Ptolemaic dynasties timeline. The sons would be princes. If they just had daughters for 300 years, then you may have a point."Ptolemaic Dynasty - 305 - 30 B.C.Ptolemy Mery-amun Setep-en-re 305 - 282 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Mery-amun Setep-en-re ("Beloved of Amun, Chosen of Re")
Also known as Soter I, Ptolemy I
Ptolemy User-ka-en-re Mery-amun 285 - 246 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - User-ka-en-re Mery-amun ("Powerful is the Soul of Re, Beloved of Amun")
Also known as Philadelphus, Ptolemy II
Ptolemy Iwa-en-netjerwy-senwy Sekhem-ankh-re Setep-amun 246 - 222 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-netjerwy-senwy Sekhem-ankh-re Setep-amun ("Heir of the Twin Gods, Chosen of Amun")
Also known as Euergetes I, Ptolemy III
Ptolemy Iwa-en-netjerywy-menkhwy Setep-ptah User-ka-re Sekhem-ankh-amun 222 - 205 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-netjerywy-menkhwy Setep-ptah User-ka-re Sekhem-ankh-amun ("Heir of the Two Beneficent Gods, Chosen of Ptah, Powerful is the Soul of Re, Living Image of the Amun")
Also known as - Philopater, Ptolemy IV
Ptolemy Iwa-en-netjerwy-merwyitu Setep-ptah User-ka-re Sekhem-ankh-amun 205 - 180 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-netjerwy-merwyitu Setep-ptah User-ka-re Sekhem-ankh-amun ("Heir of the Two Father-loving Gods, Chosen of Ptah, Powerful is the Soul of Re, Living Image of Amun")
Also known as - Epiphanes, Ptolemy V
Ptolemy Iwa-en-netjerwy-per Setep-en-ptah-khepri Ir-maat-en-amun-re 180 - 164 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-netjerwy-per Setep-en-ptah-khepri Ir-maat-en-amun-re ("Heir of the Two Houses of the Gods, Chosen of Ptah, Truth is the Form of Amun-re")
Also known as - Philometor, Ptolemy VI
Also Ruled - 163 - 145 B.C.
Ptolemy VIII 170 - 163 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Also known as Also known as Euergetes II
Also Ruled - 145 - 116 B.C.
Ptolemy VII 145 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Also known as Neos Philopator
Ptolemy IX 116 -110 B.C.
Also known as Soter II
Also Ruled - 109 - 107 B.C. and 88 - 80 B.C.
Ptolemy X 110 - 109 B.C.
Also known as Alexander I
Also Ruled - 107 - 88 B.C.
Ptolemy XI 80 B.C.
Also known as Alexander II
Ptolemy Iwa-en-pa-netjer-nehem Setep-ptah Ir-maat 80 - 58 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-pa-netjer-nehem Setep-ptah Ir-maat ("Heir of the God that Saves, Chosen of Ptah, In the Form of Truth")
Also known as Neos Dionysos, Ptolemy XII
Queen Berenice IV - 58 - 55 B.C.
Ptolemy XII 55 - 51 B.C.
Sons - Ptolemy XIII
Daughters - Cleopatra VII, Arsinoe
Queen Cleopatra Netjer-et Mer-it-es 51 -30 B.C.
Birth name - Cleopatra
Epithet - Netjer-et Mer-it-es ("Goddes, Beloved of her Father")
Also known as Cleopatra, Cleopatra VII
Father - Ptolemy XII
Husband - Julius Caesar
Son - Ptolemy XV Caesarian
Burial - Alexandria
Ptolemy Iwa-panetjer-entynehem Setep-en-ptah Ir-maat-en-re Sekhem-ankh-amun 36 - 30 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-panetjer-entynehem Setep-en-ptah Ir-maat-en-re Sekhem-ankh-amun ("Heir of the God that Saves, Chosen of Ptah, Carrying out the Rule of Re, Living Image of Amun")
Also known as Caesarian, Ptolemy XV
Father - Julius Caesar
Mother - Cleopatra VII "

But the quote still has "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt " in it.As you say yourself Ptolemy XIII was too young to rule & had an advisor. Nevertheless he was still an Egyptian Prince.------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Egypt as a kingdom was not to be destroyed: it was to survive but with greatly reduced power - "a lowly kingdom", never presuming to exert power over the surrounding nations any more. "

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But Egypt DID presume to exert power over "surrounding nations". they attacked Israel in 1948 & 1973, & has always desired its elimination as a state since 1948.

Also, moving away from the Macedonian/Ptolemaic Dynasty. http://members.aol.com/saa4him/khis.htm puts Ezekials birth at 592 BC http://members.aol.com/egyptmous1/chrono.html#timeline shows the Pharoahs timeline since Ezekials birth.26th Dynasty - 664 - 525 B.C. - Saite (in part)Psamtik Nefer-ib-re 595 - 589 B.C.
Birth name - Psamtik
Throne name - Nefer-ib-re ("Beautiful is the Heart of Re")
Also known as - Psammetichus II
Wah-ib-re Ha-a-ib-re 589 - 570 B.C.
Birth name - Wah-ib-re ("Constant is the Heart of Re")
Throne name - Ha-a-ib-re ("Jubilant is the Heart of Re Forever")
Also known as - Apries
Ah-mose Si-neit Khnem-ib-re 570 - 526 B.C.
Birth name - Ah-mose ("The Moon is Born")
Epithet - Si-neit ("Son of Neith")
Throne name - Khnem-ib-re ("He Who Embraces the Heart of Re")
Also known as - Amasis
Psamtik Ankh-ka-re 526 - 525 B.C.
Birth name - Psamtik
Throne name - Ankh-ka-re ("Re Gives Life to the Soul")
Also known as - Psammetichus IThe Late Period - 525 B.C. - 332 B.C.27th Dynasty - 525 - 359 B.C. - First Persian PeriodCambyses Mesut-i-re 525 - 522 B.C.
Birth name - Cambyses
Throne name - Mesut-i-re ("Offspring of Re")
Also known as - Cambyses II
Burial - Taakht-i-Rustam, Iran
Darius Setut-re 521 - 486 B.C.
Birth name - Darius
Throne name - Setut-re ("Likeness of Re")
Burial - Naqsh-i-Rustam, Iran
Xerxes 485 - 465 B.C.
Birth name - Xerxes
Artaxerxes I 465 - 424 B.C.
Birth name - Artaxerxes
Darius II 423 - 405 B.C.
Birth name - Darius
Artaxerxes II 405 - 359 B.C.
Birth name Artaxerxes28th Dynasty - 404 - 399 B.C. - SaiteAmyrtaeus 404 - 399 B.C.29th Dynasty - 399 - 380 B.C. - MendesianNef-aa-rud Ba-en-re Mery-netjeru 399 - 393 B.C.
Birth name - Nef-aa-rud ("The Great Ones Prosper")
Throne name - Ba-en-re ("Soul of Re, Beloved of the Gods")
Also known as - Nepherites I
Burial - (?) Mendes
Ha-kor Maat-ib-re 393 - 380 B.C.
Birth name -Hakor
Throne name - Maat-ib-re ("Justice is the Heart of Re")
Also known as - Achoris30th Dynasty - 380 - 343 B.C. - SebennyticNakht-neb-ef Kheper-ka-re 380 - 362 B.C.
Birth name - Nakht-neb-ef ("Strong is His Lord")
Throne name - Kheper-ka-re ("The Soul of Re Manifests")
Also known as Nectanebo I
Djed-hor Setep-en-inhur Ir-maat-en-re 362 - 360 B.C.
Birth name - Djed-hor ("Horus Says [he will live]")
Epithet - Setp-en-inhur ("Chosen of Onuris")
Throne name - Ir-maat-en-re ("Carrying out the Justice of Re")
Nakht-hor-eb Mery-hathor Snedjem-ib-re Setep-en-inhur 360 - 343 B.C.
Birth name - Nakht-hor-eb ("Strong is his Lord Horus")
Epithet - Mery-hathor ("Beloved of Hathor")
Throne name - Snedjem-ib-re Setep-en-inhur ("Pleasing to the Heart of Re, Chosen of Onuris")
Also known as Nectanebo II31st Dynasty - 343 - 332 B.C. - Second Persian PeriodArtaxerxes III 343 - 338 B.C.
Birth name - Artaxerxes
Arses 338 - 336
Darius III 336 - 332 B.C.
Birth name - Darius
The Graeco-Roman Period - 332 B.C. - 641 A.D.Macedonian Kings - 332 - 305 B.C.Alexander Mery-amun Setep-en-re 332 -323 B.C.
Birth name - Alexander
Throne name - Mery-amun Setep-en-re ("Beloved of Amun, Chosen of Re")
Also known as Alexander III, Alexander the Great
Father - Philip II
Wife - Roxane
Burial - (?) Alexandria
Philip Arrhidaeus Mery-amun Setep-en-re 323 - 317 B.C.
Birth name - Philip Arrhidaeus
Throne name - Mery-amun Setep-en-re ("Beloved of Amun, Chosen of Re")
Father - Philip II
Alexander Haa-ib-re Setep-en-amun 317 - 305 B.C.
Birth name - Alexander
Throne name - Haa-ib-re Setep-en-amun ("Jubilant is the Heart of Re, Chosen of Amun")
Also known as Alexander IV
Father - Alexander the Great
Mother - RoxanePtolemaic Dynasty - 305 - 30 B.C.Ptolemy Mery-amun Setep-en-re 305 - 282 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Mery-amun Setep-en-re ("Beloved of Amun, Chosen of Re")
Also known as Soter I, Ptolemy I
Ptolemy User-ka-en-re Mery-amun 285 - 246 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - User-ka-en-re Mery-amun ("Powerful is the Soul of Re, Beloved of Amun")
Also known as Philadelphus, Ptolemy II
Ptolemy Iwa-en-netjerwy-senwy Sekhem-ankh-re Setep-amun 246 - 222 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-netjerwy-senwy Sekhem-ankh-re Setep-amun ("Heir of the Twin Gods, Chosen of Amun")
Also known as Euergetes I, Ptolemy III
Ptolemy Iwa-en-netjerywy-menkhwy Setep-ptah User-ka-re Sekhem-ankh-amun 222 - 205 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-netjerywy-menkhwy Setep-ptah User-ka-re Sekhem-ankh-amun ("Heir of the Two Beneficent Gods, Chosen of Ptah, Powerful is the Soul of Re, Living Image of the Amun")
Also known as - Philopater, Ptolemy IV
Ptolemy Iwa-en-netjerwy-merwyitu Setep-ptah User-ka-re Sekhem-ankh-amun 205 - 180 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-netjerwy-merwyitu Setep-ptah User-ka-re Sekhem-ankh-amun ("Heir of the Two Father-loving Gods, Chosen of Ptah, Powerful is the Soul of Re, Living Image of Amun")
Also known as - Epiphanes, Ptolemy V
Ptolemy Iwa-en-netjerwy-per Setep-en-ptah-khepri Ir-maat-en-amun-re 180 - 164 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-netjerwy-per Setep-en-ptah-khepri Ir-maat-en-amun-re ("Heir of the Two Houses of the Gods, Chosen of Ptah, Truth is the Form of Amun-re")
Also known as - Philometor, Ptolemy VI
Also Ruled - 163 - 145 B.C.
Ptolemy VIII 170 - 163 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Also known as Also known as Euergetes II
Also Ruled - 145 - 116 B.C.
Ptolemy VII 145 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Also known as Neos Philopator
Ptolemy IX 116 -110 B.C.
Also known as Soter II
Also Ruled - 109 - 107 B.C. and 88 - 80 B.C.
Ptolemy X 110 - 109 B.C.
Also known as Alexander I
Also Ruled - 107 - 88 B.C.
Ptolemy XI 80 B.C.
Also known as Alexander II
Ptolemy Iwa-en-pa-netjer-nehem Setep-ptah Ir-maat 80 - 58 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-en-pa-netjer-nehem Setep-ptah Ir-maat ("Heir of the God that Saves, Chosen of Ptah, In the Form of Truth")
Also known as Neos Dionysos, Ptolemy XII
Queen Berenice IV - 58 - 55 B.C.
Ptolemy XII 55 - 51 B.C.
Sons - Ptolemy XIII
Daughters - Cleopatra VII, Arsinoe
Queen Cleopatra Netjer-et Mer-it-es 51 -30 B.C.
Birth name - Cleopatra
Epithet - Netjer-et Mer-it-es ("Goddes, Beloved of her Father")
Also known as Cleopatra, Cleopatra VII
Father - Ptolemy XII
Husband - Julius Caesar
Son - Ptolemy XV Caesarian
Burial - Alexandria
Ptolemy Iwa-panetjer-entynehem Setep-en-ptah Ir-maat-en-re Sekhem-ankh-amun 36 - 30 B.C.
Birth name - Ptolemy
Throne name - Iwa-panetjer-entynehem Setep-en-ptah Ir-maat-en-re Sekhem-ankh-amun ("Heir of the God that Saves, Chosen of Ptah, Carrying out the Rule of Re, Living Image of Amun")
Also known as Caesarian, Ptolemy XV
Father - Julius Caesar
Mother - Cleopatra VIIThis is a lot of Egyptian princes!------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
I emailed some authorities on this and they are supposed to provide me with further information. I think that the bible means a ruling prince, which would make sense inside the context of the preceding and following paragraphs.

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But a "ruling prince" is a king/pharoah, & not a prince at all. Even if it was, theres loads of examples I've given post-500 BC.Pls post or give me the link to the full passage.Thanks,Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

Same difference. There were Egyptian "eaxalted ones" after Ezekial.------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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No longer will there be a prince in Egypt.

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"and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." (Redstang writes)

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But after Nebuchadnezzar has brought down Egypt's ruler, sent her villages into captivity and set fire to the land, the most logical conclusion is that the punishment is over. Nowhere does it say Egypt is to be punished forever until the end of time.

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That a prophecy need not be for all time is a good point. However, Ezek 30 is specific, "no longer" means no longer. If there IS a prince after the time of writing, then the the "no longer" part of the prophecy is violated. No time scale is mention/implied, if it was meant, it should have said so. There may be a billion years between the prophecy & the next prince, it matters not, the prophecy is still false. Whether Egypts punishment is over or not is irrelevent. The prophesy should have said "No longer will there be a prince in Egypt, whilst I'm punishing it", but it doesn't.It doesn't say Egypt should be punished for ever, but it DOES say there aren't going to be any more princes.The original purpose of my posting was as an answer to Redstangs claim that "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." & "This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States!" & "Further proof that it is the word of good is in it's prophecies. The prophecies in the bible have come true in minute detail 100%."Redstang quoted the "princes" prophecy because he thought it accurate & without ambiguity, in response to Joz' claim that biblical prophecies are useless as prophecies go, because, "Any prophesy that is stated in vague enough language as to provide a plenum of solutions is not verified by the occurrence of one of those solutions....".Its only fair to allow Redstang to get together his info before declaring the prophecy false. But, to answer my points, Redstang has to actually introduce ambiguity to make the prophesy true, entirely the opposite of what was intended. This would then make Joz' statement true.The sentence under question includes two areas where ambiguity can be introduced. "No longer" & "no more", & neither come with an upper time limit. NEVER, would therefore be an accurate interpretation. It seems I'm looking forward to some pretty titanic twisting of the meaning of the word "prince", as well.When we question these propohecies, christians always fall back on the accuracy of the Hebrew translation. Words mean different things the closer I look at them, it seems. I ask then, how do christians know you are getting the true meaning of the bible when there are so many translatory inconsistencies in the prophecies, of all things. If anything needed to be literal, it should be them. What does that say for the rest of it?As I say, I really have to wait for Redstang.------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-17-2001]

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Originally posted by redstang281:
And don't forget Nasser in the 20th century.

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Can you trace his family heritage back 2,000 years to the original Egyptians? The prophecy was directed towards the Egyptian race at that time. No doubt Nasser is mixed with other races who have breed into the Egyptians.

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Amyrtaeus was a libyan. I am still researching the rest of those names, but I have a feeling they are Persian.

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Nassers heritage is irrelevent. He is Egyptian. The prophecy was directed at Egyptians, there is no mention of race. (Is there an Egyptian race?). In fact, the reference is geographical in the "land of Egypt".Amytaeus was indeed a Libyan, he also belonged to a one generation dynasty & so couldn't have been a prince, unless he was his own father . Also, the 27th & 31st Dynasties are Persian & almost definately not Egyptian.I have a source saying the 30th Sebbenytic Dynasty was the last of the Egyptian born Pharoahs. Though I find it hard to believe none of the Macedonian/Ptolemaic weren't born in Egypt, as Alexandria was the center of the empire at that time.------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
The geographical reference was to discribe the people.

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The geographical reference was to describe geography. How do you describe people geographically & mean race? If a racial meaning was meant be implied, then a racial reference should have been made. It wasn't. "Land" does not imply race. If it was meant to, it should have said so.An Egyptian King is a king born in Egypt.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
But at this point the proof would only show when the prophecy started, as the validity of the prophecy has been verified.

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Let me remind you. The prophecy stated "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt". The prophecy started the moment it was uttered. If it was not meant to, it should have said so. If that was what it meant, & didn't say so, then it is wrong.Nevertheless you have already said there hasn't been a prince of Egypt for 2,500 years, so you seem to think that it started when Ezekiel made his prophesy too.------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] The bible does not use the word race. In the bible "of the land" means "people of the land.
[/QUOTE]

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They should have used race.....

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If I described "people of the land of Sudan" would I be leaving out the third that is represented by blacks, or the two thirds Arab population? "people of the land of Sudan" describes all people from Sudan, regardless of race. Therefore if an Eskimo couple go to Egypt, have a son, he is "of the land of Egypt.

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If Ezekiel meant pureblooded Egyptians, with no non-Egyptian ancestry, then he should have said so, written it in Hebrew, so it could be translated into English. But he didn't.

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All of this is a moot point, because if the bible in Ezek 30 meant "princes of the people of the land" they should have said so, & not "princes of the land".

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[QUOTE]So you think the Lord should have said "and if there is a person who is king, and his son is to take the throne, he must first take him to another country before he is born." I hardly think so.
[/B]

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No, where did you get that from?What Ezekiel should have said, if its what he meant, was "& no more will there be a prince of pureblooded Egyptian descent.But, again, he just didn't. [QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] then there will no longer be a king of egypt who is of egyptian nationality.
[/QUOTE]Precisely. Nationality, there is NO mention of race.------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
Nasser is not the same as those people. The people "of the land" who the Lord was referring too have been bleed out in race, culture, etc.. He is in no way like them.

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So what land is Nasser of?Go on, say it!------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-17-2001]

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Originally posted by Fred Williams:

You are still hanging your hat on a few figures whose history is clouded in mystery. The first you cited, Amytaeus, was apparently a Libyan according to redstang281’s research (his opponent Mark24 concurred). Regardless, since there is so little we know about these few names you mention, it is unreasonable to include them in this analysis. They easily could not have been princes over Egypt (perhaps only part of Egypt), or they easily could have had non-Egyptian origin. The reasonable thing to do is to focus on those figures in history for whom we have ample evidence. Fortunately there are scores we can look at. The no princes prophecy is fulfilled to a tee. There is no way to get around it without invoking cloudy, murky data.

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Hi Fred,
You say that we shouldn't draw conclusions from these names. Do you mean just the names that Percy mentions? Or any of the post Ezekiel names?------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.