What did I Misunderstand, Zachariah?

In the Faith and Belief forum, I accepted a challenge from Zachariah to read the book of John with an open mind. An open mind meaningZachariah’s Challenge:

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I challenge you all to read the book of John start to finish as many times as you can for one week. Every day before you start reading and after you finish, say a prayer asking for direction, proof, if you're real then answer me in some way, etc... ...But when you have an open mind and are willing to allow God to speak to you in his way he will.

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In message #125, I clarified the definition of an open mind from the dictionary. Open Minded-open to new ideas, not biased. So I read the book of John four times without assuming it was true or false. Took it at face value.I reported my perceptions in message #297 and Zachariah responded with:

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There are a lot of areas that were misunderstood in your reading of JOHN. I hope you will read more in the bible and try to research it out some to see if you can get to the bottom of some of your questions or interpretations that you listed. If you have a question for me ask away and I'll see what I can do. Thanks again for giving it a shot. The seed has been planted that is all I can do. God bless you throughout your life I hope you do well.

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Since the thread got overrun with the ToE discussion, there was no room for Zachariah to explain what he feels I have misunderstood.I would like to start a new thread so that we may continue a line of discussion on the results of the challenge.

It doesn't look like we are going to get Zachariah back to finish the discussion very soon if at all. Maybe he went on a sabbatical.I was really hoping in this forum someone actually explain what I supposedly don't understand. My experiences with bible studies usually ended this way. I didn't understand and they didn't want to discuss it. So I had to find my own answers and thus began the path toward atheism.Mogur, sorry this discussion didn't go anywhere very quickly. Maybe someone will rescue it within the next week or so.Have a great week!

Good to hear from you Zachariah. I was hoping you were just busy and hadn't left us.For the book of John to convince me that the story of Jesus, as presented in this manuscript, is true, it needs to stand on its own without Dogma and Tradition (DT) and not contradict the OT.Remember I’m working with an open mind, which means no presumption of truth or false. It doesn’t mean gullible. Right now I have this document in front of me that wants me to trust in what it says, but I haven't found any support in the OT for its claims. The early Jews would have used the OT to verify it, and that is what you will need to do to verify the claims of this book.

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Craig L. Blomberg, PHD, state in the book The Case for Christ by Lee Strombel: It’s important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are anonymous.

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To my: John 21:23-25 Leaves the author and his backers unknown. The disciple who Jesus loved is not identified. You reply:

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In other references to John in earlier gospels John (who is the youngest) is also referred to as "the one Jesus loved". It seems as though Jesus had his favorites.

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What scripture specifically. I couldn’t find any reference to John the disciple being preferred, except in the book of John. You are using unknown authors to verify an unknown author.To my: The short OT references, which the writer uses to confirm the truth of his writing, don’t really back up the writer’s point. Several are lines taken from Psalms which are songs. You reply:

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Is there something untrue because they quote songs? The songs are prayers or statements of love sang out to God that doesn't take away from there authenticity, does it? A number of Psalms are referred to throughout the bible for backing.

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Yes, I have a problem with using songs to verify a claim. All it verifies is that the author read or sang the Psalms. Example: John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written: Zeal for your house will consume me.Psalms 69:8-9 actually says: I am estranged from my brothers, an alien to my mother’s sons; because zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.The song was written in the present tense of its author, not referring to a future happening. So the author of John apparently has been singing it wrong. Growing up I came across many songs that I felt mirrored my life or feelings at the moment, but even quoting a song correctly doesn’t make the songwriter or his words a witness to my life or any claims I make with lines from their song.The songwriters in Psalms sang of their time and experiences.Right now I have to head out to work, so I will continue with the rest of your comments this evening.Have an excellent day!

Sounds like you are where I was about 5 years ago. Enjoy the journey, it is an amazing trip. - PD

More to digest.To my: Never found the mention of the rising after three days.
You referred me to Mark 15:42. Again you have an unknown verifying an unknown.John 2:19-22 reads: Jesus answered them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. The Jews then said, It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days? But he was speaking of the temple of his body. So when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he said this, and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.John 20:9 states For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.So there should be some verification in the OT for this claim. Where is this in the OT?Concerning my comments: Testimony: John 5:31-32 If I alone testify about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who testifies of me, and I know that the testimony which he gives about me is true. That testimony is not written down and it seems that at the time this statement was made John was dead. John 5:35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. The Pharisees called him on the self testimony in John 8:13 So the Pharisees said to Him, You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true. But then John 8:14 Jesus answered with Even if I testify about myself, my testimony is true. And with John 8:17-18 Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. I am he who testifies about myself, and the father who sent me testifies about me.The point of this concern is that Jesus uses John as a witness and since we have no discernable timeline the later statement leaves the possibility that John may not have been around for that audience. From the book itself we really don’t know. Truly, when the book was actually written, John was not around.In the encounter with the Pharisees, Jesus now considers his own testimony to be acceptable. He also uses the testimony-of-two-men law to verify his claim. The problem with that is that God is supposedly not a man. So we have one man speaking for himself and another being who doesn’t talk out loud so that all can hear.Concerning Third Party Conversations you replied:

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I'm not sure why this would be a problem. As in many cases word can get back to someone by others reporting back.

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The problem is we don’t know who did the reporting. Was that a reliable person? How many people did it travel through? How long before the information came back? Hearsay can be problematic.John 7:53 - 8:11 suspect — The problem here is not the teaching, but that a large change was allowed to be made in the document. Since we don’t have true originals, the question arises could other changes have been made? All the more reason to check the claims of the document.Concerning the Flesh Eating and Blood Drinking scenario you answered:

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I think the idea was to get them to understand the meaning behind the blood and flesh.

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Unfortunately the writer didn’t really clarify the point and apparently the audience didn’t think so either. Where in the OT are the claims of John 6:49-58 covered? Where in the OT is the mention of eating anyone’s bread/flesh and drinking wine/blood will lead to eternal life?I don't feel this document accomplished its task of convincing me that its claims are true now or then.

Zachariah writes:

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It is interesting that the gospels all quote psalms more than any other book in the bible.

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My personal opinion is that since the Psalms are songs and prayers, they are easier to memorize because of repetative use. Even today, I'm sure it is easier for someone to remember the words of their favorite songs than a scripture. I don't believe the common people were taught to memorize scripture as the Protestants do today. I know the early Catholic church didn't encourage memorizing scripture.I'm assuming that each first century Jew didn't have a copy of the Hebrew OT handy to read for inspiration or clarification. The songs and prayers are easy to carry within us and pass on to our children. My daughter knows songs that were way before her time because I sang them to her as a child, just as my father sang them to me. Some of them I have never actually seen the written words.So I can understand why the use of the Psalms was prevalent in the NT.

Wow, they jumped on you like a stirred up anthill!

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I'm a christian of 19 years that has never finished reading the bible once.

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I was a Christian for 43 years. I have read the Bible several times completely through and various translations. If I was any good at languages I would have loved to learn Hebrew, but I don't have that talent. I was always very active in the church, which means I saw a lot of the inner workings. (Very scarey!)

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Do you all have faith in any book you have ever read in school.

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I love books. I love to read. I can read 1800 words a minute with 85% comprehension. (Yes I was tested. College-Speed Reading Class) And no I don't necessarily trust everything I read. If it sounds "hinky" (I like that word) I do research.Have you ever heard the phrase "the computer or software is only as good as its programmer?" Well a book is only as good as its writer, which leaves all manuscripts open to human error. (I was a journalist in the USMC)Would you believe that George Washington did not throw a silver dollar across the Potomac River? According to my research for a story many+ years ago it was actually a stone across the Rappahannock River. I printed that short story with that information correction in it and no one called me a heretic or said I would suffer in eternal agony. You see in the scheme of things it didn't really matter. No one (that I know of anyway and no I haven't met everyone on the planet) is basing their life on that information.If I don't believe Abraham Lincoln was born in Kentucky, no one will point a finger and condemn me to suffering. My daughter may nag me to death since she is a Lincoln collecter, but no one else will try to lay a guilt trip on me.No one will try to end my life because I don't believe what is written about Abe Lincoln.Christianity wants me to base my life and what I think on the information in the Bible and reject everyting else, even common sense in some cases. I usually get burned when I don't use my common sense.In the Bible Accuracy Forum check out the topic I started on "Was Christianity Exposed?". I want you to read what I wrote concerning the Mormon church. To me that movement was to Christianity as Christianity was to the Jews.I do like the words of wisdom in the Bible:

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Proverbs 18:15
The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

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Take care and enjoy the day!

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The people that wrote the history books were there and it was passed down in many cases. The most important thing to realize is that they are more recent events and easier for us to check up on.

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About two years ago, my mother, my daughter and I were walking across a bridge that crossed the Wabash River. It was during our rainy season, so the river was high. When we got to the middle of the bridge we saw a young lady standing on the outside of the rail. Just as we realized she was on the outside of the railing, she jumped into the river! With our trusty mobile phone we dialed 911 and kept an eye on her in the river. She didn't yell for help or try to swim to shore. She had jumped in on purpose.What is the point of this story you ask. Well someone jumping off a bridge brings the news media. Now my family and I were the only ones on the bridge besides the jumper. There were some people on the bank, but they didn't see her jump, just heard the splash. When the police and the reporters came, we told them what we saw. When we watched the news and read the newspaper, they stated that the young lady was walking along the outside of the bridge and fell in.The point being that we told the facts within minutes of the incident and the writer still got it wrong. The TV people hadn't even talked with us, so I'm not sure where they got their info. We were the only eyewitnesses.There have been various newspaper articles written about me or one of my family members over the years and it never fails, they always manage to get some facts wrong or the intent of the story wrong.So what are the odds that the writers in the NT or OT didn't make any mistakes?I don't argue the little errors in the Bible, unless they claim it is in the OT.
I have a problem with the big claims. Such as:Jesus is the anointed one of the Jews
Eternal Life
Eternal SalvationIf these claims of the NT are truth, then they must be substantiated by the OT. So when you read the NT and then check the OT for confirmation, make sure you don't rely on DTs (Dogma/Tradition) as fact either.I can see I'm not going to be able to give you short answers. I'm long winded today. But I will break them up into separate posts so no one will doze off in the middle.INTERMISSION

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The Bible is simply a map, a guide. It was written by a whole host of people. Much of it, in fact nearly all of it, is simply parable. It is a collection of short stories meant to provide lessons for how best to live a good life.

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I also enjoy reading the Jewish and Native American stories. More great lessons.

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What we found was that far from being savages, the Cherokees were successful farmers and land owners, the best educated and most prosperous people in the area.

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Check out this site about the Iroquois Women.Needless to say, the history presented to us in school is very selective.

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I have always heard the gospels as "the gospel according to _________" that gives it's ownership. You all have alot of trouble allowing yourselves to let go and except that.

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In the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, his expert Craig Bloomberg states: "It's important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are anonymous."The authorship of these books are by tradition only. By family tradition my grandfather was born in OK. After a lot of researching I finally found out he was born in the county next to where I grew up in IN. As a genealogist I find a lot of problems with tradition.Would you "let go" and entertain the claims of the Mormon, John Smith? They do know he is the author of his book. Rumor has it that changes have been made, but I don't know about that.

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Do you know everything?

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No I do not, but I don't admit that to my daughter.
You will also find that neither do clergy, evangelist, sages, elders, NT writers, OT writers, nor politicians. No human can know everything, but we do know what is right for our individual self and survival.

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courage to say maybe this bible is true

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I searched for the truth. I piously read the skeptics claims and then zealously searched through the NT, OT and apologetics to disprove their outrageous claims. Unfortunately, I found the apologetics to be lame and the NT and OT hung themselves out to dry.Like I've said before, there is wisdom in the Bible. The wisdom doesn't usually have anything supernatural attached to it. Several cultures have wise sayings that help to guide people through life. I pass on lessons I've learned from my experiences to my daughter.OK I'm winding down now.

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Is there a possibility that GOD doesn't exist? In my mind, no.

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And that is great for you. If you have a good life and are happy, then hang on.Organized religion is not condusive to my happiness. Been there done that with all my heart. I feel that organized religion is manmade.So if I decide to search for a supreme being, it won't be there.I really have no words for where I am right now, except peaceful.So don't lose your peace.I think I'm done now. Have a great day!

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Now I'm starting the OT to see all the ways it collaborates the NT.

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So back to the Book of John. Have you checked the OT references yet to see if they concur with each other?

Shadoe is a beautiful cat.

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does john even make specific ot references?

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The OT references I found that John uses to infer that Jesus was fulfilling the OT are:John 1:23 refers to Isaiah 40:3
John 6:45 refers to Isaiah 54:13
John 7:42 refers to 2 Samuel 7:12 and Micah 5:2
John 12:15 refers to Zechariah 9:9
John 12:38 refers to Isaiah 53:1
John 12: 40 refers to Isaiah 6:10
John 19:37 refers to Zechariah 12:10There are several reference to Psalms in the book of John but I personally don't consider songs as something to be fulfilled.In the book "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Judaism" by Rabbi Benjamin Blech he states that:

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In the Book of Psalms, we speak to God and to our own hearts. ...we find expression for all the sorrows, troubles, fears, doubts, hopes, pains, perplexities, and stormy stresses to which the souls of men are tossed.

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(Pr 15:1) A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Original Challenge from Zachariah:

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I propose to all of you who claim athiest views to take a challenge. You must be truthful and courageous though. I say that many of you can be converted to christianity and will be.

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My point to Zachariah was that the little nods to the OT did not impress me as something to be fulfilled by Jesus/Messiah.So with an open mind and reading only the book of John, I don't see any information that leads me to trust the writers presentation.Zachariah hasn't gotten back with me on his views of the references to the OT.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Zachariah,You've left me hanging on our book of John discussion.Have you read the OT yet to see if it corroborates the claims of the book of John?

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

I took the time to read the book of John three times with an open mind.I get the feeling from your posts that you yourself have not read the book of John with a truly open mind or read it three times in a row.I am disappointed that you haven't taken the time to read Isaiah so that we could have an open minded discussion about the book of John and the claims of the writer.So since you have lost interest in this discussion and are not inclined to do the research, our discussion is concluded and I did not revert to Christianity.Have a great summer!

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.