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Author Topic:   Using the Bible as fact...
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 113 (11349)
06-11-2002 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Peter
06-11-2002 7:17 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
Would you care to elaborate the difference between 'an opinion
on the meaning of a text' and 'the interpretation of a text' ?

***Sure! I would be glad to!

Interpretation: Explanation of what is obscure; A translation from one language into another. [New International Dictionary]

Opinion: That which is opined; belief stronger than impression, less strong than positive knowledge. [New International Dictionary]

I hope that helps!

Shalom

Jet

------------------
Please limit signatures to at most a couple hundred characters. --Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Peter, posted 06-11-2002 7:17 AM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by John, posted 06-11-2002 10:52 PM Jet has responded
 Message 34 by Peter, posted 06-12-2002 8:28 AM Jet has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 113 (11359)
06-11-2002 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jet
06-11-2002 6:12 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
***Sure! I would be glad to!

Interpretation: Explanation of what is obscure; A translation from one language into another. [New International Dictionary]


My dictionary has:

Interpretation: to decide what the intended meaning of something is (Cambridge International Dictionary)

Let's see... you also get:

Interpretation: to concieve in the light of individual belief, judgement or circumstance (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary)

These come to mind long before the senses of "translation" or "transliteration"

Take care.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jet, posted 06-11-2002 6:12 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Jet, posted 06-12-2002 1:31 PM John has responded

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 34 of 113 (11381)
06-12-2002 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jet
06-11-2002 6:12 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
***Sure! I would be glad to!

Interpretation: Explanation of what is obscure; A translation from one language into another. [New International Dictionary]

Opinion: That which is opined; belief stronger than impression, less strong than positive knowledge. [New International Dictionary]

I hope that helps!

Shalom

Jet


I asked for the difference in meaning between two phrases ...
you have provided dictionary defintions of two words.

Not the same, try again


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jet, posted 06-11-2002 6:12 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Jet, posted 06-12-2002 1:35 PM Peter has responded

    
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 113 (11398)
06-12-2002 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by John
06-11-2002 10:52 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:

.......These come to mind long before the senses of "translation" or "transliteration"

***And that in itself is a matter of "opinion".***

Shalom

Jet

------------------
“There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming.”

Professor Paul Davies


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by John, posted 06-11-2002 10:52 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by John, posted 06-12-2002 2:04 PM Jet has responded

  
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 113 (11399)
06-12-2002 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Peter
06-12-2002 8:28 AM


Sounds like semantics to me. Did I miss something?

Shalom

Jet

------------------
“There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming.”

Professor Paul Davies


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Peter, posted 06-12-2002 8:28 AM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Peter, posted 06-12-2002 4:27 PM Jet has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 113 (11403)
06-12-2002 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jet
06-12-2002 1:31 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jet:
***And that in itself is a matter of "opinion".***
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, it is. But words carry with them more than their strict definitions. I found far more references to interpretation as an expression of opinion, than as translation. My experience as an English speaker in an English country leads me to believe that this is by far the most common association with the word.

You are technically correct. I can't argue that. It just seems that you'd choose a word less likely to cause misunderstanding.

Not to mention that numerous informal logical fallacies depend upon just this sort of word play-- alternate meanings... that sort of thing.

Take care.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Jet, posted 06-12-2002 1:31 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jet, posted 06-13-2002 2:15 PM John has responded

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 38 of 113 (11417)
06-12-2002 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jet
06-12-2002 1:35 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
Sounds like semantics to me. Did I miss something?

Shalom

Jet


Yep ... you missed answering my question.

And it is semantics ... in so much as semantics is about
meaning ... and I directly asked you a question concerning
the meaning of two different phrases.

The definition of interpretation that you use is a valid one,
I'm not disputing that ... but in the context of the phrase
it doesn't seem to fit.

'An opinion on the meaning of a text' suggests a subjective
assigning of meaning to the written words of the text ...
that is 'an interpretation of the text'.

In the context within which you used them, I cannot see any different
content ... and asked you to elaborate that difference.

You haven't ... you have provided isolated dictionary defintions ...
selected out of the large number of possible definitions for each
word.

This leads me back to the topic of this thread.

You have found debate and differing opinions over two, very simple
looking phrases.

How then can you claim the Bible as fact, when it contains much more
complex textual content, which itself has been translated across
many languages (not to mention blatantly changed for
political ends).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jet, posted 06-12-2002 1:35 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Jet, posted 06-13-2002 3:14 PM Peter has responded

    
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 113 (11484)
06-13-2002 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by John
06-12-2002 2:04 PM


John says:
Yes, it is. But words carry with them more than their strict definitions.

***I agree! Unfortunately, many EVOs abandon this line of reasoning when it comes to "definition". If a strict definition is necessary for their prodigals, then strict it is. However, it a broad definition is required, then adherence to those previous guidelines is abandoned in order to support their assertion. I do not necessarily imply that you fall into this category, as it seems from this post at least, that you do not.***

John says:
You are technically correct. I can't argue that. It just seems that you'd choose a word less likely to cause misunderstanding.

***I admit to the expectation of reason and understanding within those to whom I may choose to reply. This, unfortunately, is not always the case. As a youth, one of the many principles greatly impressed upon me was the necessity of developing a great power of reason. I can thank my father, and my grandfather, for that. Perhaps, at times, I require and expect too much from some individuals. The power of reason is not an automatic consequence of physical maturity. Some, like myself, have worked at truly developing it, and others have not. Mores the pity!***

Shalom

Jet

------------------
“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

Prof. George Greenstei


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by John, posted 06-12-2002 2:04 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by John, posted 06-13-2002 2:35 PM Jet has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 113 (11487)
06-13-2002 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jet
06-13-2002 2:15 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
***I agree! Unfortunately, many EVOs abandon this line of reasoning when it comes to "definition".***

I don't see this in evolutionary science. Of course, humans being human there are going to mistakes, slips of the tongue, whatever, and there are outright deception at times. As long as these errors are corrected, no big deal. Short of our becoming infallible, this is the best we can do. What I don't see is intentional equivocation on a grand scale.

quote:
The power of reason is not an automatic consequence of physical maturity.

Yeah, no kidding.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jet, posted 06-13-2002 2:15 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Jet, posted 06-13-2002 3:21 PM John has responded

  
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 113 (11491)
06-13-2002 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Peter
06-12-2002 4:27 PM


Peter says:
In the context within which you used them, I cannot see any different
content ... and asked you to elaborate that difference.

You haven't ... you have provided isolated dictionary defintions ...
selected out of the large number of possible definitions for each
word.

This leads me back to the topic of this thread.

You have found debate and differing opinions over two, very simple
looking phrases.

How then can you claim the Bible as fact, when it contains much more
complex textual content, which itself has been translated across
many languages (not to mention blatantly changed for
political ends).



***Aside from simply stating your personal opinion on specific matters, matters with which I happen to disagree, you simply recycle an already answered question, the answer to which, you either did not, or could not understand and/or accept. So allow me to clarify my position as to my expectations when discussing and debating with others. For your convienence, I have chosen to cut-n-paste rather than refer you to the post in which this statement originates.

"I admit to the expectation of reason and understanding within those to whom I may choose to reply. This, unfortunately, is not always the case. As a youth, one of the many principles greatly impressed upon me was the necessity of developing a great power of reason. I can thank my father, and my grandfather, for that. Perhaps, at times, I require and expect too much from some individuals. The power of reason is not an automatic consequence of physical maturity. Some, like myself, have worked at truly developing the power of reason, and others have not. Mores the pity!"

If the reply that I gave was not satisfactory for you, then I am sorry. The above statement is a reasonable expectation. For those who cannot meet that expectation, I suggest they refrain from responding to my posts with the expectation of receiving a reply. TURN THE PAGE!

Shalom

Jet

------------------
“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

Prof. George Greenstein

[Fixed too long line of asterisks. --Percy]

[This message has been edited by Percipient, 06-13-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Peter, posted 06-12-2002 4:27 PM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Percy, posted 06-13-2002 3:28 PM Jet has responded
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 06-13-2002 3:34 PM Jet has responded
 Message 54 by Peter, posted 06-14-2002 3:35 PM Jet has responded

  
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 113 (11493)
06-13-2002 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by John
06-13-2002 2:35 PM


John says:
Of course, humans being human there are going to mistakes, slips of the tongue, whatever, and there are outright deception at times.......What I don't see is intentional equivocation on a grand scale.

***Beauty, or rather in this case, Honesty, is in the eye of the beholder. Agreement to disagree is a cornerstone of debate.***

Shalom

Jet

------------------
“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

Prof. George Greenstei


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by John, posted 06-13-2002 2:35 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by John, posted 06-13-2002 5:05 PM Jet has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16293
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 43 of 113 (11495)
06-13-2002 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jet
06-13-2002 3:14 PM


Hi Jet!

When you include a long line of asterisks in a message (or any large number of consecutive characters with no spaces) then it prevents the browser from displaying the page any narrower than the width of that line, causing the need for horizontal scrolling. Instead of a line of asterisks could I suggest that you instead use the HTML horizontal rule:

<hr>

Thanks!

--Percy
   EvC Forum Administrator


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Jet, posted 06-13-2002 3:14 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Jet, posted 06-14-2002 12:22 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16293
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 44 of 113 (11496)
06-13-2002 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jet
06-13-2002 3:14 PM


Jet writes:

"I admit to the expectation of reason and understanding within those to whom I may choose to reply. This, unfortunately, is not always the case. As a youth, one of the many principles greatly impressed upon me was the necessity of developing a great power of reason. I can thank my father, and my grandfather, for that. Perhaps, at times, I require and expect too much from some individuals. The power of reason is not an automatic consequence of physical maturity. Some, like myself, have worked at truly developing the power of reason, and others have not. Mores the pity!"

So your answer to Peter's point that the dictionary definitions you supplied don't fit the context is that you have greater reasoning powers?

Sheesh!

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Jet, posted 06-13-2002 3:14 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Jet, posted 06-14-2002 12:20 PM Percy has responded

    
John
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 113 (11510)
06-13-2002 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Jet
06-13-2002 3:21 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
John says:
***Beauty, or rather in this case, Honesty, is in the eye of the beholder. Agreement to disagree is a cornerstone of debate.***

Sad that I can't get any of that debate out of you. Do you really think cookie-cutter quips and flippant dismissals count as discussion?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Jet, posted 06-13-2002 3:21 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jet, posted 06-14-2002 12:26 PM John has responded

  
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 113 (11589)
06-14-2002 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Percy
06-13-2002 3:34 PM


Percy says:
So your answer to Peter's point that the dictionary definitions you supplied don't fit the context is that you have greater reasoning powers?

***You seem to have a fondness for putting words into peoples' mouths. Perhaps you would do well to simply take a statement at face value, thereby avoiding spurious interpretations of what you assume someone means. Or perhaps this is merely one of the debating tactics learned in EVO 101?
Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!***

------------------
“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

Prof. George Greenstei


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 06-13-2002 3:34 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 06-14-2002 1:49 PM Jet has responded

  
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