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Author Topic:   Why Doesn't the Moon Have Life?
ringo
Member
Posts: 12912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 61 of 97 (425245)
10-01-2007 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Scoopy
10-01-2007 12:42 PM


Scoopy writes:

... I'm just saying if the average distance was increased or decreased, we would be in deep trouble.

Not sure what you mean by "average distance", but the eccentricity of the orbit doesn't seem to be too critical, according to Discover magazine:

quote:
Astronomer Darren Williams and his colleagues at Pennsylvania State University at Erie have been studying elliptical orbits recently, and they think life on Earth can withstand a lot more tumult than scientists previously guessed. They have been running sophisticated computer models of planets in orbits of varying eccentricity circling suns of various sizes. "High eccentricity does not critically compromise planetary habitability," Williams says. Then he drops the astrobiology lingo and translates with a boyish smile: "These planets will still support life."


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 12:42 PM Scoopy has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 62 of 97 (425322)
10-01-2007 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Scoopy
10-01-2007 1:41 PM


Scoopy writes:

I was just repeating what I had read in a science textbook, that's all. I'm not confused at all.


(1) Provide the title and author of this wonderful science fiction textbook for us, please.

(2) The distances between the Earth and the Sun vary several millions of miles within a year.

(3) We know for a fact that the angle of tilt in our axis changes over time. Ancient cultures built monuments and sun dials that if used today are off by many degrees. We can either assume that people back then were idiotic enough to not be able to tell their sun dials were off or we can assume that the angle of tilt in our axis changes over time.

(4) I have a pretty good idea who wrote the science fiction textbook you got your information from. I used to have a pastor who repeatedly said that if our planet suddenly become only a mile farther away from the sun or a mile closer to the sun, all life on Earth would die immediately.

(5) Anymore insightful science fiction information you want to share with us?


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 1:41 PM Scoopy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 10:11 PM Taz has responded

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 97 (425329)
10-01-2007 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Scoopy
10-01-2007 1:41 PM


Here Learn more about precession, and how our axial tilt changes over time without bringing about the apocalypse. I find it hard to believe that there is a science text book that advocates the viewpoint you are espousing, but please share with us if you can cite it for real.

Or even more information on axial wobble Chandler Wobble

Edited by EighteenDelta, : No reason given.


"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact — which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 1:41 PM Scoopy has not yet responded

  
Scoopy
Junior Member (Idle past 3401 days)
Posts: 18
From: Springfield, Oregon
Joined: 09-30-2007


Message 64 of 97 (425355)
10-01-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Taz
10-01-2007 7:01 PM


First of all, you don't know if it's fiction unless you know everything, and I hardly think you do or you would be all over the news. Second of all, what I was talking about, and lets see if you can grasp this, is that the earth goes in an eliptical pattern. Which means that there is a short diameter and a long diameter to it's orbit. If the long diameter were to be lengthened just a little bit, it would cause drastic consequences. This has nothing to do with a pastor, I have never heard a pastor say this. And I don't have to cite titles or authors or anything. This isn't the world championship of debates here. All I was saying was I read it somewhere. If you are going to use condescending talk like that then you only piss people off, and that is not debating, that's being a prick. Try just having an open mind and reading what people have to say, if you know so much, then you can be a teacher to the people who know less than you. But if you use talk like you do, it only turns people off, it doesn't promote good conversation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Taz, posted 10-01-2007 7:01 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by molbiogirl, posted 10-01-2007 10:36 PM Scoopy has responded
 Message 68 by Taz, posted 10-02-2007 12:35 AM Scoopy has responded

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 65 of 97 (425365)
10-01-2007 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Scoopy
10-01-2007 10:11 PM


And I don't have to cite titles or authors or anything.

Um. Wrong.

You're new here, so allow me to quote Rule #4:

Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 10:11 PM Scoopy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 10:40 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

  
Scoopy
Junior Member (Idle past 3401 days)
Posts: 18
From: Springfield, Oregon
Joined: 09-30-2007


Message 66 of 97 (425366)
10-01-2007 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by molbiogirl
10-01-2007 10:36 PM


Then I would like to see documentation for Taz's statments about the tilting of the earth changing over time. Also his documentation about my source being science fiction. Do you see what you have opened up here by using Rule #4? I want documentation from everything read then that states facts. Especially when I am ridiculed. That is poor debating. Condescending remarks are not debating they are childish.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by molbiogirl, posted 10-01-2007 10:36 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2007 12:03 AM Scoopy has responded
 Message 69 by Taz, posted 10-02-2007 12:46 AM Scoopy has responded
 Message 70 by anglagard, posted 10-02-2007 4:21 AM Scoopy has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2654 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 67 of 97 (425375)
10-02-2007 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Scoopy
10-01-2007 10:40 PM


Actually, given that you made the first claim in the newly restarted discussion/debate, you should be the first to cite your sources.

That would be proper debate etiquette.

If your source does claim something similar to "if the earth moves a mile closer or further from the sun all life will die" then it is science fiction because science doesn't claim that. That would be a logical conclusion--another part of debating that really doesn't need sources. Here's his logical construction (as I understand it):
Scoopy's 'science' source says X.
Science doesn't actually claim X.
Therefore, Scoopy's source isn't science.

Scoopy's source claims to be scientific.
Scoopy's source is in fact not scientific (see first conclusion).
Therefore, Scoopy's source is fictitious (i.e. not real, not true).

Scoopy's source isn't science.
Scoopy's source is fiction.
Therefore, Scoopy's source is science fiction.

Taz doesn't need any sources to claim your source is science fiction. You made a claim, so it is on you to support your claim. Until then, you cannot disprove the counter-claim.

So who's your source?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 10:40 PM Scoopy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Scoopy, posted 10-02-2007 10:38 AM kuresu has not yet responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 68 of 97 (425376)
10-02-2007 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Scoopy
10-01-2007 10:11 PM


Scoopy writes:

First of all, you don't know if it's fiction unless you know everything, and I hardly think you do or you would be all over the news.


I used to have students like you. Rather than trying to spend a few seconds looking up some info, you decided to follow your pride and continue to spout the same nonsense.

Second of all, what I was talking about, and lets see if you can grasp this, is that the earth goes in an eliptical pattern. Which means that there is a short diameter and a long diameter to it's orbit.

Yup, I used to have students like you. You read something that, to you, was completely new so you assume that the rest of us didn't already know all of this. I'll clue you in on something. I used to spend many long hours trying to explain to college students in detail how orbital mechanics work. You're not impressing anyone.

And I don't have to cite titles or authors or anything.

Sure you do, otherwise anyone can claim anything with the "I read somewhere that..." excuse.

But to be fair, we'll do it your way. I read somewhere that you are completely wrong.

If you are going to use condescending talk like that then you only piss people off, and that is not debating, that's being a prick.

My apology for using a condescending tone. But like I said, after a while, you all sort of look and sound the same to me.

Try just having an open mind and reading what people have to say, if you know so much, then you can be a teacher to the people who know less than you.

Here's the thing. "I read somewhere that..." doesn't carry much weight in the real world. I know that this line of argument is very popular among creationists, but in academia we strive for a little more than this. For a starter, you could at least give us a clue on the book you read that gave you such blatant misinformation.

But if you use talk like you do, it only turns people off, it doesn't promote good conversation.

Ok, I apologize.

So, how about that reference?


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 10:11 PM Scoopy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Scoopy, posted 10-02-2007 10:45 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 69 of 97 (425378)
10-02-2007 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Scoopy
10-01-2007 10:40 PM


Scoopy writes:

Then I would like to see documentation for Taz's statments about the tilting of the earth changing over time.


Here's the kicker, the change in the tilting of the Earth's axis is such a common knowledge (at least in academia anyway) that it's one of those "I can't believe you didn't know this before" kinda thing.

It's like gravitation. I had to deal with a teenager that tried to disprove the theory of gravity by pointing out that rocks don't orbit mountains. It's just one of those moments where there's really no good argument against such blatant ignorance and misinformation and all you can do is blink once and stare in awe of what's just been said.

But as Kuresu and Molbio already pointed out, you're the one that made the original fantastic claim. The burden of proof is on you. Otherwise, we'd all be playing the "I read somewhere that..." game.

PS - the reason we're not treating your incredible claim so seriously is because we've seen it a thousand times before from people who didn't even know what foci are in an ellipse or how to calculate their positions. Fun fact for you. The sun is located at one of the foci of Earth's elliptical orbit.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 10:40 PM Scoopy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Scoopy, posted 10-02-2007 10:48 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 79 days)
Posts: 2157
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 70 of 97 (425389)
10-02-2007 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Scoopy
10-01-2007 10:40 PM


Precession and Axial Tilt
Scoopy writes:

Then I would like to see documentation for Taz's statments about the tilting of the earth changing over time.

In addition to the precession of the equinox as already mentioned (and documented) by EighteenDelta there is also a slight variation in the degree of axial tilt between 22.1 and 24.5 degrees.

For more information, see the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_of_the_equinoxes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_tilt

Also, as already pointed out, this information is readily available to anyone who bothers to search for it.

Edited by anglagard, : add documented


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Scoopy, posted 10-01-2007 10:40 PM Scoopy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Scoopy, posted 10-02-2007 10:53 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Scoopy
Junior Member (Idle past 3401 days)
Posts: 18
From: Springfield, Oregon
Joined: 09-30-2007


Message 71 of 97 (425439)
10-02-2007 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by kuresu
10-02-2007 12:03 AM


if you read my original statement, I don't remember the title of the book that I read it from...I just have a good memory for facts and I was just stating something I read. I would love to see the facts that show that my statement is entirely impossible. And I don't want to see that "the earth's distance from the sun varies by millions of miles over the time of it's revolution". That is NOT what I stated originally.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2007 12:03 AM kuresu has not yet responded

  
Scoopy
Junior Member (Idle past 3401 days)
Posts: 18
From: Springfield, Oregon
Joined: 09-30-2007


Message 72 of 97 (425442)
10-02-2007 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Taz
10-02-2007 12:35 AM


I told you, I don't remember...from now on I won't use the terms "I read somewhere", ok? I will do my research and cite sources. I came into this forum to learn from people that might have more knowledge about certain subjects. It shouldn't matter if I am a creationist or atheist, or buddhist, or whatever. I never deserved to be ridiculed. I accept your apologies absolutely, and I will do my best to cite resources. I was just wanting to contribute to the conversation. If I had taken a class from you, and you responded like that to me I would have gone to you in private and confronted your teaching styles. This forum should be no different. If someone is obviously ignorant of certain details of a subject, why should he be criticized? Just like I said in my other response, the knowledgeable ones should be the TEACHERS!, not the criticizers. I have a college degree in mathematics and know a lot about certain subjects. So, I screwed up on this comment about the earth. Let's just wipe the slate clean and I will work a little harder on citing better quotes.
OK?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Taz, posted 10-02-2007 12:35 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
Scoopy
Junior Member (Idle past 3401 days)
Posts: 18
From: Springfield, Oregon
Joined: 09-30-2007


Message 73 of 97 (425445)
10-02-2007 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Taz
10-02-2007 12:46 AM


I wasn't making a claim, just saying what I had read. It isn't my claim at all. I was just making conversation. You shouldn't take it so personally
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Taz, posted 10-02-2007 12:46 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
Scoopy
Junior Member (Idle past 3401 days)
Posts: 18
From: Springfield, Oregon
Joined: 09-30-2007


Message 74 of 97 (425448)
10-02-2007 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by anglagard
10-02-2007 4:21 AM


Re: Precession and Axial Tilt
I know that the earth tilts back and forth causing the seasons we have. This I know. What I was talking about, and again, this is only what I had read, not my own statement, was that if the tilt were to be 2 or 3 degrees further out during winter or closer to the sun during summer. That is what the statement was. I understand that the sun's tilt has been changing and varying over time. Again, all I was doing was contributing to the conversation. But a lot of you people seem to just jump on the contributors if you see something that to you seems ridiculous. That doesn't seem like it promotes more conversation. I'm sorry for stating something that seems so stupid. I'll just sit back and learn for a while I guess. Maybe I'm not good enough to join forums like this one.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by anglagard, posted 10-02-2007 4:21 AM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Vacate, posted 10-02-2007 11:10 AM Scoopy has responded
 Message 77 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2007 11:36 AM Scoopy has responded

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 1980 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 75 of 97 (425452)
10-02-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Scoopy
10-02-2007 10:53 AM


Re: Precession and Axial Tilt
was that if the tilt were to be 2 or 3 degrees further out during winter or closer to the sun during summer.

I would suggest though that given the earth has shown to tilt more than two or three degrees and life did not all die out that the hypothesis is incorrect.

Given that we vary by a few million miles in distance from the sun I also believe that this would have little effect on life on earth.

Again, all I was doing was contributing to the conversation.

I for one am glad you did. I had to go look up tilts and distances to see if you had a point. Ideas are fine, people just get jumpy here if they believe your asserting them as fact (not saying you had)

Maybe I'm not good enough to join forums like this one.

A thick skin and a careful choosing of words and you will do just fine. Welcome to EvC :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Scoopy, posted 10-02-2007 10:53 AM Scoopy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Scoopy, posted 10-02-2007 11:19 AM Vacate has responded

  
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