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Author Topic:   Is there a border dividing life from non-life?
AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 468 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 106 of 132 (479256)
08-25-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by bluegenes
08-25-2008 4:23 PM


Re: Talking to the dead!
Well, I guess he was sidelined!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by bluegenes, posted 08-25-2008 4:23 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by dokukaeru, posted 08-31-2008 8:34 AM AlphaOmegakid has responded

  
imnotbncre8ive
Junior Member (Idle past 3283 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 08-27-2008


Message 107 of 132 (479534)
08-28-2008 5:38 AM


quote:
I don't know if you actually know what you're talking about, but if you do you should work on being able to express it. I doubt ANYONE can follow those ramblings. I don't mean to be harsh, but please understand that's no way to put forth an argument. It's like talking to an ELIZA-like program.

I must agree. Very technical jargon, poor punctuation, with abysmal organization of thoughts (and perhaps incorrect usage of nontehcnical words in many cases) make it entirely incomprehensible. When I read a random scientific article, I often don't know many of the field-specific technical terms, but one still gets a general sense for the argument being put forth and the reasoning supporting it. Here, it feels like a disaster.

"perhaps you will be the first to displace this sustained attention"
"your good big statistical mechanical heart desires but this will not guarenttee in biology that you have a an electron DISTRIBUTION"
"you can have any letter I wrote as I do not require the last word"
"Because cellular automata are about fungi not lichens which you or I could engineer in some future ecosystem and besides I DID THINK of something substative in Wolfram's classifications of automata but as his own company distanced himself from it I will only now write about that under the issue of Why Weyl never got biology just left."
"if it matters which way the dripping water flows but I guess you simply have a materialistic bent that is the majority here but not one I arouse nor try to awake"
Is English your third language? Jesus, work on your communication skills. I don't care if you're ten times the genius Einstein was, none of it will be worth a damn if you can't communicate effectively with others.

Edited by imnotbncre8ive, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by bluegenes, posted 08-28-2008 7:15 AM imnotbncre8ive has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 108 of 132 (479538)
08-28-2008 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by imnotbncre8ive
08-28-2008 5:38 AM


Technical points
imnnot, when you reply to a specific post, click on the reply button at the bottom right of that post, rather than the general reply button. Readers cannot tell where your quote is coming from.

I've just looked back a bit, and your first quote is from a post made 4 years ago by an inactive member.

Someone else recently made the same mistake, which is why this thread has emerged from the past.

The other stuff's from a member called Brad McFall, who's a nice guy, but may have medical problems related to communication. The post is also 4 years old.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by imnotbncre8ive, posted 08-28-2008 5:38 AM imnotbncre8ive has not yet responded

  
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2207 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 109 of 132 (479555)
08-28-2008 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by AlphaOmegakid
08-25-2008 4:15 PM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
Are we talking organism death or cellular death AOKid?
wiki writes:

Precise medical definition of death, however, becomes more problematic, paradoxically, as scientific knowledge and technology advance.

AOKid writes:

If you think this is illusionary, then why will you eventually die? All organisms die. All the chemicals are there. If you want to talk about a "primordial soup" of organic chemicals, then how about the "soup" of chemicals still present when an organism dies. All the proteins are present for life. All the amino acids are present for life. All the catalysts are present for life. All the DNA and RNA is present for life. All the cell walls are present for life. What better organic soup could you want other than a dead organism.

Why does your car or computer eventually die? All the parts are still there? Isn't it possible to still fix these things? All that is needed is to identify and replace the nonworking part(s). You or I(assuming you are not a mechanic/IT specialist) could not fix these things, but given enough time and resources, an expert could. Science continually makes advances in extending life. Research into telomeres may find a way to prevent cellular death.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 08-25-2008 4:15 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-12-2008 9:36 AM dokukaeru has responded

    
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2207 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 110 of 132 (479558)
08-28-2008 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by AlphaOmegakid
08-25-2008 4:15 PM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
AOKid writes:

educated scientific abiogenesist


Could you provide a definition?

AOKid writes:

Only religious ideas would lead to the conclusion from the evidence that there is no distint boundary.


Is the google scholar search your evidence?
Have people been pronounced dead and then brought back to life?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 08-25-2008 4:15 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-12-2008 10:03 AM dokukaeru has responded

    
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2207 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 111 of 132 (479559)
08-28-2008 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by AlphaOmegakid
08-25-2008 4:15 PM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
Is a virus alive or dead AOKid?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 08-25-2008 4:15 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-12-2008 10:06 AM dokukaeru has responded

    
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2207 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 112 of 132 (479960)
08-31-2008 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by AlphaOmegakid
08-25-2008 4:57 PM


You are silent AOKid?
So you do not want to discuss this further?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 08-25-2008 4:57 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-12-2008 10:10 AM dokukaeru has not yet responded

    
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 113 of 132 (480051)
08-31-2008 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by AlphaOmegakid
08-25-2008 4:15 PM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
Hi, AOkid!

How are you doing?

AlphaOmegakid writes:

If you want to talk about a "primordial soup" of organic chemicals, then how about the "soup" of chemicals still present when an organism dies. All the proteins are present for life. All the amino acids are present for life. All the catalysts are present for life. All the DNA and RNA is present for life. All the cell walls are present for life. What better organic soup could you want other than a dead organism.

Do you believe that, as soon as the organism "dies," all chemical reactions happening in the organism's cells cease completely, all at the same time?

I suspect that this isn't the case. I suspect that death (either the process leading up to the final event or the direct aftermath thereof, or, most likely, both) is characterized by a gradual falling off of chemical activity, rather than a sudden cessation of all functions associated with "life."

On these grounds, I reject your claim of a sharp, distinct boundary.


-Bluejay

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 08-25-2008 4:15 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-12-2008 11:05 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 468 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 114 of 132 (481728)
09-12-2008 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by dokukaeru
08-28-2008 10:34 AM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
doku writes:

Are we talking organism death or cellular death AOKid?

Organism death. Cellular death is organism death doku. Trust me, scientific evidence "suggests" you will die.

doku writes:

Why does your car or computer eventually die? All the parts are still there? Isn't it possible to still fix these things? All that is needed is to identify and replace the nonworking part(s). You or I(assuming you are not a mechanic/IT specialist) could not fix these things, but given enough time and resources, an expert could.

Huh? Comuters die? Cars die? What branch of science do you come from? The literary sciences....I mean arts. Death in the way you used it is a metaphor. Computers aren't alive and neither are cars. I hate to break that to you. Therefore, your whole logical anaology breaks down. Sorry.

doku writes:

Science continually makes advances in extending life. Research into telomeres may find a way to prevent cellular death.

Science also continually makes advances in ending life. I think science is neutral on this subject.

So you must believe in immortality? Infinitely long telomeres. That's an interesting mythological concept.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by dokukaeru, posted 08-28-2008 10:34 AM dokukaeru has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by dokukaeru, posted 09-12-2008 2:20 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

  
AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 468 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 115 of 132 (481737)
09-12-2008 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by dokukaeru
08-28-2008 10:38 AM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
doku writes:

AOKid writes:

educated scientific abiogenesist


Could you provide a definition?

A regious zealot who ignores scientific evidence about life and pursues mythological stories about the origin of life coming from the evolutionary emergence of chemicals.

doku writes:

Have people been pronounced dead and then brought back to life?

Yes, and I think the last time I checked 100% of scientists in the world would still predict that those who have been brought "back to life" will still die eventually.

Except for the one who has power (that's a physics term) over life and death (those are biological terms)....Jesus Christ who rose from the dead and lives today. I put the parenthetical statements in because this is a science forum.;)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by dokukaeru, posted 08-28-2008 10:38 AM dokukaeru has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by dokukaeru, posted 09-12-2008 2:38 PM AlphaOmegakid has not yet responded

  
AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 468 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 116 of 132 (481739)
09-12-2008 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by dokukaeru
08-28-2008 10:38 AM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
doku writes:

Is a virus alive or dead AOKid?

A virus is unequivocally dead outside a host cell.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by dokukaeru, posted 08-28-2008 10:38 AM dokukaeru has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by dokukaeru, posted 09-12-2008 2:30 PM AlphaOmegakid has not yet responded

  
AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 468 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 117 of 132 (481741)
09-12-2008 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by dokukaeru
08-31-2008 8:34 AM


Re: You are silent AOKid?
doku writes:

So you do not want to discuss this further?

No I love to discuss this subject, especially with people like you. I just thought that this thread died. It's been brought back to life! Hallelujah. But I theorize, based on evidence, it will die in the future.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by dokukaeru, posted 08-31-2008 8:34 AM dokukaeru has not yet responded

  
AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 468 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 118 of 132 (481744)
09-12-2008 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Blue Jay
08-31-2008 5:57 PM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
bluejay writes:

Do you believe that, as soon as the organism "dies," all chemical reactions happening in the organism's cells cease completely, all at the same time?

Nope. Definitively Nope. Actually many chemical reactions don't begin to start happening until after death.

However, to answer your question more thoroughly, for a single celled organism, at the point of death most if not all of the chemical reactions that support life do cease. This has to do with the cessation of the process of respiration. In multicellular organisms it is a matter of respiration also. When the cardio/ pulminary/neuroligial systems stop the process of respiration then the organism dies. That's why with humans, the point of death is related to these three sysems.

If ones heart stops, no blood is pumped to the lungs to receive the oxygen for all the cells in the body. If the lungs stop breathing, then we have the same dilemma. If the brain is unable to control the heart and lungs then we have a real problem. We can mechanically respirate a person as you know. And we can also mechanically pump blood as you know. So a person can be "brain dead" and still very much alive. Usually the "brain death" is caused by some form of lack of respiration for the brain cells.

So in summary, once something is alive, that life will usually continue until something stops the respiration process. Once enough cells in the cardio/pulminary/neurological systems begin to die, then organism death will prevail.

In plants, it is still a matter of respiration. A plant doesn't die all at once. Plants die over time. But they still die.

bluejay writes:

I suspect that this isn't the case. I suspect that death (either the process leading up to the final event or the direct aftermath thereof, or, most likely, both) is characterized by a gradual falling off of chemical activity, rather than a sudden cessation of all functions associated with "life."

In all multicellular organisms, you could argue that death is gradual. Actually you could argue that death begins at birth for that matter. But that doesn't help you with the concept that there is no distinct line called death. No one would argue that a baby is dead, but a baby is dying. No one would argue that my 82 year old mother with Alzheimers is dead, but she is dying. Both will have a distinct time where scientifically we will pronounce them both as dead. And ultimately that distict time is when we in all of our knowledge and power can no longer sustain their life.

We do not have this power or this knowledge. People, animals, plants, bacteria, and all iving things die. That is a fact with overwhelming evidence. You may can argue the exact moment of death, but you cannot argue that there is a distict line between death and life. Science creates this distinct line. Living things have certain distinct characteristics. Dead things don't have those characteristics.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2008 5:57 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2207 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 119 of 132 (481780)
09-12-2008 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by AlphaOmegakid
09-12-2008 9:36 AM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
AOKid writes:

Cellular death is organism death doku.


This is not true. Blood cells have an average life of 4 months. You are saying that when one of my blood cells dies, I die. Science has had problems trying to define death because new technologies have extended life past previous definitions. New definitions rely on the cessation of brain activity and function. What is to stop science from keeping a brain alive indefinitely?

Huh? Comuters die? Cars die? What branch of science do you come from? The literary sciences....I mean arts. Death in the way you used it is a metaphor. Computers aren't alive and neither are cars. I hate to break that to you. Therefore, your whole logical anaology breaks down. Sorry.

The analogy still holds. The machine's functions stop. The cell's functions stop.

I think science is neutral on this subject.

How is science neutral on this?

Wiki on Death writes:

The chief concern of medical science has been to postpone and avert death.

So you must believe in immortality? Infinitely long telomeres. That's an interesting mythological concept.

Actually yes I do. there is scienctific evidence for it. Here are 2 examples:

1. The hydra is a radially symetrical organism ranging in size from 1mm-20mm. Hydras do not age. They are biologically immortal.

2. Did you know that some cultivars of grapes are clones that have existed for thousands of years? Did you know every Granny Smith apple comes from a single chance plant that was grown in 1868 in Austailia by Maria Ann Smith? You cannot grow a Granny Smith or any other variety of apple from seed. Wouldn't you agree that is immortality?

Infinitely long telomeres.

The telomeres do not have to be infinitely long, just infinitely extended.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-12-2008 9:36 AM AlphaOmegakid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-14-2008 6:20 PM dokukaeru has responded

    
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2207 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 120 of 132 (481783)
09-12-2008 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by AlphaOmegakid
09-12-2008 10:06 AM


Re: Resurrection of topic due to interest
AOKid writes:

A virus is unequivocally dead outside a host cell.

Then explain to me how newly found Sputnik virus affects the mamavirus outside of a host cell?

By your definition of life, certain bacteria such as Chlamydia are not life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-12-2008 10:06 AM AlphaOmegakid has not yet responded

    
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