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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Taq
Member Posts: 10085 Joined: 03-06-2009 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 331 of 3694 (897485)
09-06-2022 1:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 221 by GDR
09-03-2022 1:37 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
But that is assuming that the one way to find truth is through the scientific method. It also assumes a materialistic world.
Then how do you tell the difference between the supernatural and what is just made up?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 1:37 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 366 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 5:24 PM | | Taq has not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 332 of 3694 (897487)
09-06-2022 1:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 314 by GDR
09-05-2022 7:13 PM
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It's all in your head
You take your religion, morality, world view from the conjures of your own mind. That seems a bit shaky a scaffolding on which to build a life ‘s world view. We know how fragile and prone to error even the best minds, like yours and mine, can be. We know our thoughts can be rather easily altered just by the daily chemistry that flows within us. Adopting, or more in your case, developing a religious world view seems would be a longer-term decision than could be affected by the chemistry of one lunch. Even an especially fine lunch. So I posit your fragile young mind was subject to some strong woo that connected synapses inappropriately tipping your mind into a forever proclivity for fantasy religious influences. Neural plasticity can firmly peg entire emotional suites early in development if the mind is so exposed or is unusually prone to such suggestion. I would suggest you caught the religious fantasy bug early and it burned your brain. Now with materialism and science we have the strongest facts available in all the universe upon which to build our view of this world. From big bang to standard model our world view is demonstrably real. And this knowledge of reality has improved the lives of billions in place of religions degradations. Religious knowledge seems centered on falsehoods, differences and fomenting strife between populations. Our science has made us as wizards able to tell the future and to manipulate the foundations of reality. How can any thinking man accept the evil of the former over the power of the latter?
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 314 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 7:13 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 368 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 5:44 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 333 of 3694 (897488)
09-06-2022 1:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 304 by Percy
09-05-2022 5:14 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: Dump the Christian counselor, get a professional. You really need to examine your contention that Christians can't be professionals. First of all, he doesn't preach to me. He does not use scripture to make professional points. He is on the State Board for problem gambling and is well respected within that field. He has worked with many clients. I will, however, consider your advice to get another counselor in the interest of differing approaches. Drop the idea that professionals aren't Christians. I've known you since 2004. I've known him since 2007. I plan on dropping neither of you.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 304 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 5:14 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 337 by Percy, posted 09-06-2022 2:19 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 351 by ringo, posted 09-07-2022 11:53 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 334 of 3694 (897489)
09-06-2022 2:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 307 by nwr
09-05-2022 5:50 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
nwr writes: 'm agnostic on the question of whether there is a god. To put that in perspective, I'm also agnostic on the question of whether there are leprechauns or gremlins. Actions speak louder than words. The actions of Christians belie their claims of belief. Take an example. The Trumpian Christians believe that their God wanted Trump to win the 2020 election. They also believe that their God is omnipotent and could have affected how voters chose to vote. And they believe that their God is omnipotent and omniscient so could not be affected by attempts at fraudulent voting. And yet they believe that the result of the election was fraudulent. They also believe that there God is omnipotent, yet they stormed the capitol on Jan 6th because they didn't expect God to do the job for them. There's a whole bunch of confusion and incompatibility there. Just how do you know it was Christians who did those things? It would be like someone claiming that it was all atheists who committed the violence and carnage during the BLM riots. Yes, I do think that there is an unhealthy mixture of nationalism, politics and religion that are sometimes blended together in the US. However I suggest that the violence that occurs in those protests whether it be Jan 6 or BLM that violence comes from those that don't have a cause but enjoy the violence.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 307 by nwr, posted 09-05-2022 5:50 PM | | nwr has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 336 by nwr, posted 09-06-2022 2:12 PM | | GDR has not replied | | | Message 338 by Percy, posted 09-06-2022 2:23 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 335 of 3694 (897491)
09-06-2022 2:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 315 by AZPaul3
09-05-2022 7:33 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes: If it's unprovable how do you assess its truth value?
I believe that murder is wrong but I can't prove it. I believe that helping the poor is good but I can't prove it. How do you assess truth value for things you can't prove?
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 315 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2022 7:33 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 340 by AZPaul3, posted 09-06-2022 3:45 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 336 of 3694 (897492)
09-06-2022 2:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
09-06-2022 2:01 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Just how do you know it was Christians who did those things? Many of them have been quite open about it.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 334 by GDR, posted 09-06-2022 2:01 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 337 of 3694 (897496)
09-06-2022 2:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 333 by Phat
09-06-2022 1:58 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes: Percy writes: Dump the Christian counselor, get a professional. You really need to examine your contention that Christians can't be professionals. I meant a professional psychologist. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 333 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 1:58 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 338 of 3694 (897498)
09-06-2022 2:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
09-06-2022 2:01 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: However I suggest that the violence that occurs in those protests whether it be Jan 6 or BLM that violence comes from those that don't have a cause but enjoy the violence. Violence and destruction of property was associated with less than 7% of BLM demonstrations. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 334 by GDR, posted 09-06-2022 2:01 PM | | GDR has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 339 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:41 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 339 of 3694 (897501)
09-06-2022 2:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 338 by Percy
09-06-2022 2:23 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
In my opinion, the majority of participants in BLM protests embraced a cause born of suffering. A minority incorrectly felt a sense of revenge. Contrastingly, a majority of Jan 6th protesters embraced a cause born of entitlement. A majority felt justification for revenge.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 338 by Percy, posted 09-06-2022 2:23 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 340 of 3694 (897503)
09-06-2022 3:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 335 by GDR
09-06-2022 2:05 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
How do you assess truth value for things you can't prove? Your examples are not appropriate. The actions being good or bad is opinion dependant on context, not some fact to be evaluated for efficacy. Truth value cannot be assessed on opinion. The point is, if the facts you use in deciding cannot be verified how can you have any faith in the outcome of your analysis? If you have no facts to assess your god how can you evaluate the truth value of that god? Edited by AZPaul3, .
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 335 by GDR, posted 09-06-2022 2:05 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 341 of 3694 (897505)
09-06-2022 6:26 PM
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Normally the belief comes before the justifications for it. It's either instilled from birth and reinforced thereafter at home, school and church or found later in life through some sort of revelation that feels impressive to them but sounds daft to others. We should really be trying to understand the psychology of revelation rather than hope that scientific rationalism will change the minds of the born and the born again. The stupid don't understand and the clever try to apropriate it.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 343 by AZPaul3, posted 09-06-2022 9:18 PM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 369 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 6:13 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 342 of 3694 (897508)
09-06-2022 9:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 316 by AZPaul3
09-05-2022 10:25 PM
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Re: How many philosophers does it take to ...
AZPaul3 writes: What observational evidence leads you to your god? I have nothing new to add. The answer for me is consciousness, a sense of morality, altruism etc. I know that you all have a naturalist answer to that but however I don't have the faith to believe that this can from a strictly materialistic world.
AZPaul3 writes: So there is the basis of your beliefs about the world. The catechism resonates with you. Gives you the warm and fuzzies. Sorry. God is intellectually acceptable because the idea is comforting to your psyche. No, I was right … warm and fuzzies. Just a tad presumptuous. That is rather a typical response from those of your perspective. I hold my beliefs because I believe them to be true. I could just as easily say that you are atheistic as you don't want to acknowledge that there is an intelligence greater than your own.
AZPaul3 writes: The insults just come too easy. I’ll say it anyway. For a weak minded religious weenie steeped in fantasy you are unusually well informed and it shows. Unfortunately you seem to have missed the points of the two scholars you mentioned. I said I read them which did not mean that I agreed with them. (Dawkins and Hitchens). I also listened to debates between them and various Christians. Many times I preferred Hitchens to the Christians when I saw them trying to defend the genocidal accounts in the OT. Hitchens did a great job of pointing out the biblical contradictions between that and Jesus calling us to love our neighbours.
GDR writes: What science do I not believe in? AZPaul3 writes: - you can’t prove a negative so don’t ask - evidence has to be physical, not philosophical or ephemeral. - people's deep religious beliefs are not evidence no matter how many there are - if it has effects in this universe it will leave lots of marks that we can see - a lack of evidence can indeed be evidence ... for just a few science concepts you seem to have issues with.
- scientific evidence has to be physical which does not mean that philosophy can't provide insights. There is nothing in scince that claims that to be the case. It just happens to be you non-scientific belief. - I agree - Science observes how things are, and in many cases even describe the processes that resulted in things being that way but it cannot deal with why those processes exist. That is a different question using the tea cup analogy. - I agree
AZPaul3 writes: Humans evolved our morality over tens of thousands of years of intellectual and social evolution. Over all that time we would teach our moral memes to our children, we gossip and argue about them at church, we brawl over them at the pub, even go to war over them. There are many instances of great moral advances and great moral clashes throughout human history. Not everyone is on the same page. Moralities around the world, despite a few commonalities one would expect of a social species, are so different as to preclude any common universal overlord’s dictates. No, not everyone is operating by the same set of absolute universal moral truths which means they weren’t ever absolute universal moral truths to begin with. Our morals are the different views of the different segments of society acting on different sets of moral codes and moral values that when adopted were not absolute or universal or truths. One can even question whether they were moral. Various relative moralities are, however, the way this world’s societies have learned to exist. None of that is evidence for there not being a god meme or if it would be necessary. I am not denying that what you say isn't true, but it is simply your belief that there is nothing beyond the material.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 316 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2022 10:25 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 352 by ringo, posted 09-07-2022 12:02 PM | | GDR has not replied | | | Message 354 by Percy, posted 09-07-2022 12:45 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 343 of 3694 (897509)
09-06-2022 9:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 341 by Tangle
09-06-2022 6:26 PM
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We should really be trying to understand the psychology of revelation rather than hope that scientific rationalism will change the minds of the born and the born again. The stupid don't understand and the clever try to apropriate it. But scientific rationalism is the goal. As far as I can tell the psychology of revelation is that someone's got a cognitive screw loose. No matter what the understanding the stupid will still not understand and the clever will still try to appropriate. So I say speak harshly and carry a big stick of scientific rationalism.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 341 by Tangle, posted 09-06-2022 6:26 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 344 of 3694 (897513)
09-07-2022 1:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 343 by AZPaul3
09-06-2022 9:18 PM
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Ok, I have to object. You and Tangle are painting cleverness as a vice and clever people as conmen.
AZ writes: No matter what the understanding the stupid will still not understand and the clever will still try to appropriate. Tangle writes: We should really be trying to understand the psychology of revelation rather than hope that scientific rationalism will change the minds of the born and the born again. The stupid don't understand and the clever try to apropriate it. Now I know quite a few really clever people who would never exploit others. And I don't think it takes much cleverness to take advantage of religious people. Trump supporters and the Rajineeshees are 2 great examples of dumbshits conning millions. And of course there have been some pretty clever con men as we've seen with a couple of the richest men ever. I've just always had a soft spot in my heart for "clever." Back in the '80s a British dragonfly specialist and his wife and 4 year old daughter came to study with me for a summer. The daughter, Rebecca, told me the story of how she had collected her very first dragonfly and at the end, she asked me, "Wasn't that clever of me?", and I assured her she was indeed clever.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 343 by AZPaul3, posted 09-06-2022 9:18 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 345 by AZPaul3, posted 09-07-2022 1:26 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 4.7
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"Wasn't that clever of me?", and I assured her she was indeed clever. I think you have made a very clever objection.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 344 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-07-2022 1:06 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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