Christianity Is Broken, but Can Be Fixed

I appreciate you practicing your heresy-hunting skills AdminSchraf but like, go easy will ya I'm trying to fix Christianity here

That is a copout. You've strayed into the world of science with your stats n' surveys TL, so the subjective will have to shift to one side for a moment and let the objective speak.Objectively, whatever definition of 'Christian' you use, it suffers from one fatal problem. It's a man-made definition. And Christians are not made by man - they are made by God. A person can profess Christ and hand over their lives all they like - but until God accepts that then nothing happens. Going to church every Sunday and saying your prayers every night doesn't make you a Christian either. Nor does saying "God is the most important thing in my life".And I should know. In my childhood the Roman Catholic church reigned supreme in Ireland. Packed churches, holy pictures, holy water, in every home, mass cards, first holy communion (a chance to earn loads of money from the relatives) priest in the place of honour at wedding with folk looking up to him as if it was Jesus himself sitting there.They weren't Christians though. They were Religion-adherents. As soon as the power of the church waned the pews emptied.If you have no way of knowing whether a person is a true Christian or not you cannot guesstimate as to whether the church is doing good, bad or ugly. Take this for instance. On reading this, how many of these 294,000 people are Christians and why?

I think your missing the point here TL. It seems what Schraf is saying is that the improved behaviour you seem to think is necessary to show that Christianity is on the rails doesn't even require Christianity in order to exist.According to you, if Christianity was fixed it would be comparable to Shinto. Just in case people get your point here "If Christs people don't produce the goods then Christs message is false" I'd like to point out that the alternative "they ain't Christian" or "they are not very good Christians (biblically defendible)" is equally validIf the church is indeed broke, we gotta be careful about letting you break it any further there TL

And I'd like to point out that that's not really an alternative; all you're saying is that Christ's message isn't very good at producing actual Christians, which doesn't seem to be fundamentally different than TL's point.

it kind of is Crash. TL is saying there are lots of Christian not behaving like Christians. I'm pointing out they may not be Christian he/shes measuring in the first placeIts a narrow gate Crash. But that's not Christs messages fault. God wants that none should perish. But he's not going to twist their arms.

No, he's saying that the current state of Christianity is not successful at producing Christians who act like Christians. He asserts that this is because the church isn't getting the messageof Christ to Christians; you assert that they're not following the message because they aren't really Christians.That's a quibble about the details, but I don't see how you fundamentally disagree. Christian churches aren't turing out people who live like Christians. Isn't that what they're supposed to do? Why is it a matter of arm-twisting to you? If the way that you believe is so great, shouldn't it attract followers on its own merits? If the way that you believe has such a positive effect, shouldn't that be enough to attract followers who then reap those benefits for themselves?Why should the way of Christ be so opprobrious? Is that really what you believe? That Christ has called you to live in inequity and failure? In seperation instead of fellowship? Is that the example that Christ set for you?

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Good for them. I hope that if this is true, then someone's noticing and America is trying to make some changes to be like them.

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You mean like starting to practice Buddhism and Shinto?

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If Christ's message is true, then his people should be favorably comparable even to them. If they aren't, then it isn't.

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My point was that it is a cultural thing, of which religion is just a single part, that promotes such behavior in Japan. Much of it wouldn't work here because while "sameness", homogeniety, and subservience to a rather strict social hierarchy is normal in Japan, individuality, personal pride, and a pioneer spirit is valued here.

TL is not addressing potential causes. The actual cause is pretty much immaterial. TL's point is that Christianity as seen in the world today is failing miserably.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, didn't you say the majority of Japanese were not religious? Since I'm not the one asserting something about the Japanese, I took your word for it, and I thought I heard you say that it wasn't a religious thing. Yep, I caught that the first time. Ok. I made my comment because I think America's in desperate need of change, too, but that's a topic for a different thread. I believe we've discussed that before.

THANK YOU!Jano will disagree with you on that being what they're supposed to do, but this was clear enough for me to close my case with him (her?).Thanks.

IANO's picture is at Message 157. That might help you determine whether a him or a her.

Whatever our particular view, it is safe to say that a true Christian (as considered such by God) is whatever a true Christian is. Christianity, as observed by the world is not necessarily completely composed of true Christians. True Christians may only form a minority within the total in fact. So when TL is talking about 'Christianity failing', what is he talking about? Is it what true Christianity (composed only of true Christians) produces or what that which is labelled Christianity (which may contain many non-Christians), produces. If the latter (and I can't see how it could be anything else TL is talking about - for want of a means of deciding what a Christian is) then one might say that Christianity is failing. But so what? That doesn't impact negatively on what true Christianity does. True Christianity might be doing quite well in fact. The contention was that Christs message was failing because it wasn't producing Christians that "exhibited that which one would expect" (copyright TL paraphrased). As I point out above, in order to decided whether it was or wasn't, one would have to investigate a true Chrisitians behaviour. And that problem arises: "who are the Christians in Chrisitianity"? I would suggest that many are attracted and reap benefits. But I can't see how anyone could prove it either way.This message has been edited by iano, 21-Nov-2005 11:17 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 21-Nov-2005 11:18 AM

Well, of course this was going to happen. It was predicted in the bible.When it gets its worst, THAT is when christ will return, but that is also when everyone has HEARD, (but does not have to belie) the gospel. By everyone I mean all nations.

HAVE YOU SEEN HOW MANY PEOPLE ATTEND ONE BILLY GRAHAM CRUSADE AND HOW MANY PEOPLE COMMIT THEMSELVES TO CHRIST THAT HAVEN'T BEFORE OR WERE ATHIESTS BEFORE OR OF ANOTHER RELIGION? ITS FREEKEN UBELEIVABLE.It shouldn't still be happening today.I say christianity is still doing well, but I predict it to have some more failures.PS. Forgive me of the caps.

So how do we recognise a 'real' Christian? Do we tell them by their fruits? Or resurrect the old snakes/poison test?