no action on racist/sexist jokes thread

Maybe you aren't trying, but you are doing so... and in doing so are revealing a sexist bias. I'm not sure what you are defining as "personhood", but it seems wrapped up in sexual assault. How is murdering or maiming a man not an attack on his "personhood"? After all, his "personhood" ceases to exist.I'm not sure if you hold this belief, but many feel that the rape of a woman is a more heinous act than the murder of a man. I will never understand this - I have been sexually assaulted and I can tell you I'd prefer that to murder...Also, if you decide to define "personhood" with a woman's sexuality, you have to also realize that for many men, their "personhood" is their masculine capability, which unfortunately remains an expression of power. Many men who are physically assaulted experience severe traumatic stress, including intense feelings of failure and emasculation, psychological castration. Another warped idea - that "random" violence is somehow 'better', or that men killed during a drug deal somehow deserve it... Incorrect. Men are more likely to be overpowered, because men are more likely to be victims. In every crime with a male as victim, a man is overpowered. Again, I would posit the opposite, that it is far more acceptable for women to seek self-defense training, because men are expected to "know how to handle themselves." How many free self-defense courses are available for men compared to the many for women? Do you think there is some standard training that all boys go through? There isn't...Reporting and conviction of crimes against women are skewed. Quite likely. What about crimes against men? They are likely just as skewed, but in different ways. Across the board women get lighter sentences than men. Men face longer jail time if they attack a woman than if they make the same attack against another man. (This disparity is seen with race, also - a black man faces a longer sentence for a crime against a white person than one against another black.)Do you think that men are somehow not ashamed of being victimized, and therefore 100% of crime against men is reported? Definitely a problem... If you are implying by this statement that men are relatively more important, and therefore more protected, I say ridiculous. Only very recently have rape kits even been used on male rape victims - how is that for disparity? I would enjoy that - I'd be far less likely to be murdered or become the victim of a violent crime.
And if I was murdered or assaulted, society would care more.

I'm not saying this is your intent, but I hate the implication that comes along with statements like this - that men are the source of the problem, so any male victims are somehow more deserving or less important than female victims.Male victimizers and male victims are not the same people. The thing about us men is that we grow up knowing that we never be able to overpower many, if not most, men; yet are expected and assumed to be able to do so, and if we cannot, are seen as inadequate. I have always lived with the same knowledge, that most men would always be able to overpower me. I still live with that knowledge. I also live with the knowledge that I am more likely to be assaulted because of my sex. I agree with Holmes. Please stop making such black and white generalizations. They end up insulting both males and females that don't fit your stereotypes.

there is no undue concern for the treatment of anyone ever. all people should be treated pristeenly (note i'm not referring to bullshit like pc). anything less is inhuman. if one person is mistreated, we all have a problem and must fix it.yeah i should have had some kind of source... but my source is merely my experience in a "liberated" society.

Maybe you aren't trying, but you are doing so... and in doing so are revealing a sexist bias.we were not discussing men, rather the way society deals with women and the ways women are victimized. you bringing up the fact that men are victimized is argumentative. the point is that women have been treated as chattel for thousands of years. but sure, let's discuss how men are victimized.I'm not sure what you are defining as "personhood", but it seems wrapped up in sexual assault. How is murdering or maiming a man not an attack on his "personhood"? After all, his "personhood" ceases to exist.

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I'm not sure if you hold this belief, but many feel that the rape of a woman is a more heinous act than the murder of a man. I will never understand this - I have been sexually assaulted and I can tell you I'd prefer that to murder...

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Also, if you decide to define "personhood" with a woman's sexuality, you have to also realize that for many men, their "personhood" is their masculine capability, which unfortunately remains an expression of power. Many men who are physically assaulted experience severe traumatic stress, including intense feelings of failure and emasculation, psychological castration.i am referring to her emotional, mental, psycho-social self. this is not restricted to her sexuality, but sexual crimes only use sex as a method... they have nothing to do with sex. they have to do with taking power away from the victim. this theft of humanity (power over oneself) is what i am referring to. yes it also applies to male victims. murder is a quick end. sexual assault or stalking or other crimes that leave victims feeling powerless (or the families of murder victims... they aren't directly affected by the murder, but they can be thenceforth caused to live in fear) results in a slow, agonizing dealth of self via shame, guilt (different things btw), continued fear, torment by memory, etc. this can often lead to suicide and thus, as far as i'm concerned, if suicide occurs, the rapist or what have you is guilty of murder. note. this can be averted by psychological intervention, but many people refuse to seek treatment. congratulations on overcoming your assault, but i cannot say that i would feel the same following such an event. i suppose that is a personal issue though.Another warped idea - that "random" violence is somehow 'better', or that men killed during a drug deal somehow deserve it...i am not defending random crimes, but the specific targeting of a woman in order to disempower her or to cripple her emotionally, mentally, etc by sexual crimes is, in my opinion, worse than killing someone for not giving you your money, yes. because you most often kill her slowly for the rest of her life (unless she is provided psychological intervention). but yes, this would also apply to the same treatment of a man.but then that is a simplificationAgain, I would posit the opposite, that it is far more acceptable for women to seek self-defense training, because men are expected to "know how to handle themselves." How many free self-defense courses are available for men compared to the many for women? Do you think there is some standard training that all boys go through? There isn't...um. i was referring to society. women may be provided with more sel-defense classes, but women who seek this are often viewed as "butch" or "paranoid" or other malignant descriptions.Reporting and conviction of crimes against women are skewed. Quite likely. What about crimes against men? They are likely just as skewed, but in different ways. Across the board women get lighter sentences than men. Men face longer jail time if they attack a woman than if they make the same attack against another man. (This disparity is seen with race, also - a black man faces a longer sentence for a crime against a white person than one against another black.)

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Do you think that men are somehow not ashamed of being victimized, and therefore 100% of crime against men is reported?i was referring to and leading into the problems with the rape kits... reporting is not the correct word. i meant that the evidence is so often worthless due to mishandling and ineffectual methods in the first place. i am suggesting this is due to a general disrespect for victims of sexual crimes. but then yes this does apply to male victims as well.If you are implying by this statement that men are relatively more important, and therefore more protected, I say ridiculous. Only very recently have rape kits even been used on male rape victims - how is that for disparity?I would enjoy that - I'd be far less likely to be murdered or become the victim of a violent crime.
And if I was murdered or assaulted, society would care more. yes, but you're also less likely to get a job (affirmative action aside. which btw leads people in the workplace to view you badly because 'you only got it cause you're a woman and you aren't skilled enough for it'). you have to deal every day with people (men usually) making well known to you that you are just a body to them (oh but they think you're hot and you should appreciate the attention). oh and there's those professors who don't think women should be in your field of study and will ignore you and your questions in class and fail you if they get the chance (i'm not making this up). and of course all kinds of crazed religious people saying you're a murderer (or a supporter of murderers) for wanting the same medical privacy rights that men have (ie the government not poking into your files to find out if you were pregnant and depriving the world of another good, hard, american worker). and everyone telling you you need to find prince charming and have some cute little babies. and people asking you why you don't make yourself prettier. and limited medical research (if any) in anything that solely affects women. and the fact that all knowledge about the things that affect both men and women was only studied in men until about 5 or 10 years ago. and if you get endometriosis you better finish your family quick so you can get the hysterectomy that is still the most common treatment and the only cure for this condition. and if you don't (or do) and you have that perfect little family, you'll still be pressured by people to stay home... unless you stay home and then people will ask you why you don't have a job and are so selfish as to not contribute to your household. and on top of all of that your body rejects itself for a fourth of your life.yeah. being a woman is great and everyone pampers you.and i'm not even one of the bitter, millitant feminists. i'm actually very mild and reserved. but we were discussing the treatment of women and you decided that it couldn't possibly be as bad as it all seems. well i'm telling you it is. and this is after 30 years of "liberation". and now a days the only thoughts towards women's lib are 'are you having casual sex? if you aren't then you are not supporting the heritage of your foremothers and how hard they worked to free you from men.'wtf?sorry for the rant. i'm tired and all fired up about an entirely different subject.

Yes, quite a rant. My message before was a bit of a rant itself.Believe me, you can get over anything except death. The all-rape-victims-wither-away-in-a-slow-painful-death is the stuff of Lifetime movies and feminist propaganda. I'm not saying emotional recovery always happens, but it does more often than not.I don't want to sound patronizing, but I'll repeat what I think holmes tried to state earlier - I'm sorry for whatever world, real or imagined, you are living in. It does not mirror anything suggested by my personal experience, the experiences of the many females in my life, or real-world data for that matter. I worry that you buy into the hype that females are victims, and therefore perceive yourself as one in the many circumstances you list - believe me, 99.99% of males do not belong to a secret club that prevents them from dealing with shit all of their lives.A women shouldn't be forced to "find prince charming and have some cute little babies" any more than men should be forced to play the role of prince charming, supporting his family financially at the expense of personal family relationships. Try getting paternity leave in the US, and then explain how men have such freedom.Men are forced into roles in this world at least as much as women - roles that result in a lifespan about a decade shorter than their female counterparts. How is shortening of life a positive outcome?You cannot examine the problems of one sex in isolation of the other with any constructive output. That is why I am not a feminist, and rather describe myself as a "gender transitionist" - I believe both men and women should be free of sex-determined societal pressure.You question the validity of discussing the male condition in this debate. In my mind it is absolutely essential - trying to establish females as a victimized or materialized sex requires showing that females are worse off than men. The fact that you bring up the medical research issue demonstrates that you have not examined the issue properly - medical research is biased in favor of women's issues.In fact, some gateway pages at NCI start with two choices: "Breast Cancer" and "Other Cancers". Breast cancer has been so emphasized that, in presentation in some forums, it is given equal status to all other cancers combined.Number of peer-reviewed cancer research articles by tissue (Pubmed):
Breast Cancer - 129,203
Lung Cancer - 102,415
Colon Cancer - 48,064
Prostate Cancer - 46,204If females are the victims of medical neglect, why is a female cancer studied 2-3 times more than the comparable male cancer?This would not be biased if breast cancer was the leading cancer killer - but it is not - lung and colon cancer are the two leading cancer killers, and prostate cancer cases have similar incidence and death rates to breast cancer. Additionally, breast cancer already has a higher cure rate than lung, colon, and prostate cancer.So why the huge emphasis on breast cancer? Because women are valued more (or at least considered more worthy of protection) in society. Again, some ignorance in this statement (particularly the 5 or 10 years number). Did you know that breast cancer research was originally done on men? Do you know why? The reasons for this are (at least) two-fold. Historically, it has been more acceptable to use male test-subjects than female ones. Before that, soldiers were used. Before that, prisoners. In other words, devalued members of society. The fact that males were originally used to test breast cancer treatments is not a matter of bias against women, it is a matter of bias against men. They were used as 'guinea pigs'.A more recent reason given is an (incorrectly) scientific argument - that hormonal cycling in women provides a poor control background for experiments. This reasoning is obviously scientifically flawed, but is more a matter of medical idiocy and traditions of test subjects than the subjugation of women.Hopefully you realize that both female- and male- specific medical problems were lacking in examination up until 20 to 30 years ago. So was colorectal cancer. Taboos against openly discussing sexual organs was to blame, not sexism. In fact, breast cancer research increased exponentially before prostate cancer research did. Again, you have to make comparison to other conditions to show that endometriosis treatment is more barbaric than non-female-specific treatments (much of medical treatment in general is barbaric). The standard treatment for prostate cancer? Removal of the testicles. Castrated men have it soooo easy... I'm not saying that. I am saying that women are less likely to be the victim of crime. I am saying that victimizers of women are more harshly punished by the justice system than victimizers of men. I am saying that medical research is currently well biased in favor of women. I am saying that women spend more money on luxury items then men. And I will say that 49 of the top 50 most dangerous jobs are dominated by men. In these instances I guess you could say that women are better off.Feeling sex-based pressure at the workplace, from religious groups, or your family? Men have different, yet intense pressures from these same groups. All I can say is that if you want sex roles to change, live your life how you want to live it. I plan to do this to the best of my ability, so that I actually get to see and know my children before I retire. As what seems? What is? I decided the fact that men are more likely to be the victim of violent crime than women? That was the original point of contention that got me involved in this debate. I'd never argue that women's issues are unimportant, I just argue that men's issues are essentially ignored, while women's issues are propagandized to the point that you feel you are inherently a victim of society. No, the point is that people have been treated as chattel forever. Chattel is property (including slave property). Men are treated as property, also.I ask you - have you ever officially been listed as property in a government document? I have, as has every law-abiding male in the US, at their eighteenth birthday. At that time males are listed as potential soldiers, and thus as property claimable by eminent domain by the federal goverment.I was, officially, chattel.(chalk up another rant for me...)

Number of peer-reviewed cancer research articles by tissue (Pubmed):
Breast Cancer - 129,203
Lung Cancer - 102,415
Colon Cancer - 48,064
Prostate Cancer - 46,204

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If females are the victims of medical neglect, why is a female cancer studied 2-3 times more than the comparable male cancer?

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This would not be biased if breast cancer was the leading cancer killer - but it is not - lung and colon cancer are the two leading cancer killers, and prostate cancer cases have similar incidence and death rates to breast cancer. Additionally, breast cancer already has a higher cure rate than lung, colon, and prostate cancer.

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So why the huge emphasis on breast cancer? Because women are valued more (or at least considered more worthy of protection) in society.
i'd argue it's more cause men like boobs.... but all research into heart disease until about 5 years ago was in men's symptoms. women have entirely different ones. it goes on. so women have breast cancer research... men also get breast cancer at rather nice rates. and many men with prostate and testicular cancer get radiation therapy. there is more to medicine than cancer btw.and i am in full and total support of women being registered for selective service. but women were listed as property of their male relatives until about the 20s when they finally got suffrage.and i do live my life the way i want. i just would also like to live it by being able to sit at the bus stop in the morning (public bus not school) without having ten men roll down their windows and holler or honk or whistle expressing to me that they have undressed my in their minds and that i should appreciate this banal attention.This message has been edited by brennakimi, 08-04-2004 01:27 AM

Ridiculously absurd - it shows that you are out to paint any successes in the arena of women's issues as hidden victimization. Betty Ford essentially started the breast cancer 'revolution' - I guess she just liked boobs? Yes. Often as follow up to cancer removal and castration, after the residual cancer acquires androgen independency.I used cancer as an example because I'm familar with it, and it has clearly male- and female- specific counterparts. Currently more research is done on female-specific cancer than the leading cancer killers of both men and women, let alone male-specific cancer. Apparently in your mind sexist researchers are obsessed with the breasts of fifty-year old women, and thus are trying to save them through their life's work. Again, I would be interested to hear where you are getting your propaganda.According to Pubmed, 187,466 papers were published prior to 1999 that examined, in part, female aspects of heart disease.That's a heck of a lot more than none.But then again, you don't seem very interested in addressing the reality of some of these issues.

oh sorry i forgot the or ten. the boob thing was a joke genius.

Nice catch. I think I was thinking of three different words at once and that one popped out. I was talking about unequal, not undue. Obviously there is a reason to be concerned, though there is an odd difference in the amount of concern we show based on gender of victim (and THAT has no reason). I say move out of "fields of innocence", it sounds like a cesspool. And it certainly doesn't sound like a "liberated" society. As it is, it does not reflect any reality I know.While I totally understand that medicine had a history of being biased, it is not always biased against women. I happen to have a medical problem which is most common in women. It is recently getting lots of research and money... just not for men, pretty much at all as far as I can tell. They've even had some recent breakthroughs... for women. And there is no view on the horizon of anyone coming up with anything for men. I am at the mercy of research for women, hoping some things are also suitable for men.I also like how you glossed over the fact that boys are automatically registered for service, by saying that you SUPPORT women being registered. Oh that makes everything even steven? How about the millenia of men being owned and slaughtered by governments?And as far as rape... well it's interesting to hear that sasquatch has been the victim of sexual assault as well. And he appears to have the same outlook as I do. Having BEEN a victim, it is quite easy to say that just getting beaten to hell or outright killed is NOT preferable in any way.It is embarassing, it is extra shameful for men (of all the guys I know who have had this happen NONE have reported it, including me)... but I would take that any day of the week.Only prudishness, or an overactive imagination, makes rape worse than murder, or sexual assault worse than extreme violent assault.It was tough for me to handle at first, especially when supposed friends wouldn't listen because I was a MAN and was expected to be able to handle myself against other men. Indeed the betrayal by friends almost ended up doing more harm.But if you don't listen to society's constant whining about how this makes you a VICTIM, that must stay with you your WHOLE LIFE. Or that being sexually violated scars you any differently than any other type of violation, then you get over it just like any other problem. A few weeks, maybe a few months?Rape which includes horrific violence is of course something else (because of the violence) and may take a longer time to heal. But society adding baggage cannot possibly make it easier.Anyhow, when you complain about the annoyance of people not appreciating you at busstops in the way you would prefer to be appreciated, all I can say is boo hoo for you. Try having a car full of guys pull up and try starting fights with you, or just plain throwing stuff or shooting at you because you are a GUY. Yeah... that has happened too.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Hmm, protection of breasts is the most highly funded cancer... sounds like a male priority to me.

Yeah, because breasts aren't important to females at all... riiiiight. And for certain older women's breasts (the main group which suffer cancers) are really a major focus of men in general.Now if all that research suggested that proper cure and prevention of breast cancer was cosmetic breast augmentation surgery I might start believing such a claim.I can just see breast cancer research conferences in action."We all know what important issue has brought us together today."In unison: "Tits!"This message has been edited by holmes, 08-04-2004 07:41 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Hoilmes, you are in serious, serious need of a refresher course on basic arguments of feminism. You have invoked it on a number ofg occassions, but seem completely and totally unfamiliar with it's most basic arguments.

A there's STILL no action on the racist jokes thread.On Sunday the 1st August I received contact from someone name Percy claiming to be the EvC Forum Director. Samples were asked for and given on the 2nd.What action will be taken and when will it be taken?

contracycle,I think justice would be served if you simply never visited the thread again, since you seem so offended by its contents.You assume that only those driven by the urge to dehumanize and exterminate inferior classes of people are represented on the thread, so what could you possibly gain by engaging such people?Since there's evidently no way to convince you that you could conceivably be mistaken about people's motives for posting those bad jokes, perhaps you should avoid the Internet altogether. It seems to be rife with those who hold opinions that could differ from yours, and this seems to be something about the world that you are not equipped to accept.May I suggest a move to Saudi Arabia or China, where your views on freedom of expression are the official party line? I hope you'll find kindred spirits there.regards,
Esteban Hambre

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You assume that only those driven by the urge to dehumanize and exterminate inferior classes of people are represented on the thread, so what could you possibly gain by engaging such people?

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Actually, I don't assume that at all, any more than I assume that 60 million germans were suddenly possessed of a strange hatred for jews. What I think is that a lot of well meaning people do hatefull things becuase they do not think about the consequences of their actions.

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Since there's evidently no way to convince you that you could conceivably be mistaken about people's motives for posting those bad jokes, perhaps you should avoid the Internet altogether.

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As I have pointed out, alleged motive is WHOLLY IRRELEVANT, and no excuse.

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May I suggest a move to Saudi Arabia or China, where your views on freedom of expression are the official party line?

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No you may not. On the other hand, I'm sure you must be outraged by the character assassiination of Joseph Goebbels, the well known jokester.