farenheit 9/11 (the "liberal media", other things relating to film maker Michael Moore)

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So, at any rate, it took about a week, I seem to recall, before we were certain exactly who had attacked us.

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Oh, of course it took a few days to figure that out.But why the two month lag time?

Well I presume that they needed some planning and preparation time before they dropped off any troops in a potentially hostile area, right?It's not like the Kuwait invasion where the 182nd could fly into Saudi Arabia and be welcomed with open arms.This message has been edited by custard, 07-01-2004 08:08 AM

is so full of lies and deception that it is very close to actionable.And if you will start a thread on Gun Control I would be happy to discuss the issue with you.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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No, I do not know, and neither does anyone else know, that Bin Ladin had already gotten away.

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Excuse me? Putting special search and destroy forces on the ground two months after the fact instead of sooner doesn't strike you as giving Bin Laden a bit of a head start if he was alive?

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Yes, he had ignored Bin Ladins activities, as had President Clinton.

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Clinton had identified Al Qaaida and Bin Laden as a major threat and actually had authorized his assasination.In the latter part of his term, Clinton's administration had developed a plan to specifically deal with the group and passed it along to Bush when he took office.Just ask Richard Clarke about how seriously Bush and those in his administration took Al Qaida and Bin Laden then, even with this plan that the Clinton administration had all ready for them.If you think that this information is some Democratic spin on anything, Time magazine ran a story about it.

By whom? It's illegal for the US to assassinate people. I think you mean they might have put a bounty on him, but I don't remember when that finally happened.This message has been edited by custard, 07-01-2004 08:28 AM

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is so full of lies and deception that it is very close to actionable.

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No kidding? They actually voiced over Charlton Heston in his interview with Moore?Canadians don't have millions of guns and violent entertainment in their country but much, much lower levels of gun violence compared to the US?Wow, dumb me for being duped.

Actually, I watched all of Clarke's televised testimony, and there was really little there.I also think that invading Afghanistan was more than likely a mistake in the first place.But I also know that the US had forces in Afghanistan even earlier than when the Special Forces were sent in. In fact, we have had forces in the area for nearly a decade before.Terrorism is a whole new paradigm. It is far different than the historic Nation State Conflicts we have grown to love. It is going to take decades to learn how to fight this new type of conflict and there will be many false starts, many errors, as we build the knowledge base of how to react.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, the prohibition on Assasination is an Executive Order. All that is needed is for a sitting President to say "Except in this case" and it would be legal.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Start a thread and I would be happy to discuss the issue with you.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Crashfrog asks,

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Does [Michael Moore] work at Democratic conventions? Does he volunteer to go door-to-door for Kerry?

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Moore was careful in Fahrenheit 9/11 to criticize Congress for its failings, and he didn't let the Dems off light. When he showed nearly a dozen African-American representatives begging unsuccessfully for even one Senator's vote of support for the Florida recount proposal, presumably Kerry was one of the suspiciously silent Senators. Tom Daschle appears throughout the movie as a symbol of Democratic capitulation to the Bush administration's schemes. Moore reading the Patriot Act to Congress through an ice-cream van's loudspeaker is hilarious, but it's not so funny when you realize that only one Senator voted against the notorious bill: Democrat Feingold from Wisconsin, not Kerry. When Moore does his trademark in-your-face stunt in F9/11, he's walking up to Congressmen on the street and asking them to sign their children up for military duty. Conspicuous in its absence is any footage of Democratic resistance to Bush's tactics in Afghanistan or Iraq, probably because there was so little of it in the first place.regards,
Esteban Hambre

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I think you mean they might have put a bounty on him, but I don't remember when that finally happened.

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From:http://abcnews.go.com/...ions/world/2020/predator030624.html"When President Bush took office in January 2001, the White House was told that Predator drones had recently spotted Osama bin Laden as many as three times and officials were urged to arm the unmanned planes with missiles to kill the al Qaeda leader.""Targeting bin Laden was legally permitted under secret orders and presidential findings that Clinton had signed."This means that the Clinton administration had already been using drones to try to kill Bin Laden.

You're right. Executive order 11905. But according to this article, Schraf is wrong: no President has ever repealed this order.The closest a President has come to that was GWB in 2000:

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According to an October 21, 2001, Washington Post article, President Bush in September of last year signed an intelligence "finding" instructing the CIA to engage in "lethal covert operations" to destroy Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization.

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White House and CIA lawyers believe that the intelligence "finding" is constitutional because the ban on political assassination does not apply to wartime. They also contend that the prohibition does not preclude the United States taking action against terrorists.

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So I'm not sure what Schraf was talking about with Clinton allowing assassinations on Bin Laden. Schraf, was that a claim of the 9/11 movie?This message has been edited by custard, 07-01-2004 08:46 AM

I don't think you've seen enough of anything I've ever said about economic theory to come to this conclusion.You might find that I have some sympathy with (at least in theory) positions you hold regarding property and markets. That's my point. All I said was buyers and sellers make up a market and you think I'm invoking some ideology. There was nothing to reach that opinion except your highstrung feelings regarding economic theory.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Actually, I watched all of Clarke's televised testimony, and there was really little there.

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Wow, we must have watched different testimony.

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I also think that invading Afghanistan was more than likely a mistake in the first place.

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What??I thought that was just about the only thing that Bush did that made sense after 9/11.Al Qaida was based in Afghanistan, Bin Laden was there, bin Laden was our attacker, why shouldn't we have bombed them?I think we haven't finished the job because of this fraudulent war in Iraq, and we should have been much more agressive in trying to capture or kill Bin Laden back when we had a better chance of doing so.[qiote]But I also know that the US had forces in Afghanistan even earlier than when the Special Forces were sent in. In fact, we have had forces in the area for nearly a decade before.[/quote]Well, yeah, but was that when we were still giving aid to the Taliban and Bin Laden, or after?

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Terrorism is a whole new paradigm.

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Not all that new.Remember, Clinton captured the people responsible for the first WTC bombing and they are in prison now.

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It is far different than the historic Nation State Conflicts we have grown to love. It is going to take decades to learn how to fight this new type of conflict and there will be many false starts, many errors, as we build the knowledge base of how to react.

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Oh, I understand that.However, the "War on Terror" being promulgated by the Bush Administration is unwinnable and reckless.It's just fear tactics and falsehoods designed to make us so afraid of the boogeyman terrorist that we will agree to give up out civil rights and cough up lots of money for endless war.

Actually the article you linked says this:

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The drones were one component of a broader plan that Clarke, a career government employee, had devised in the final days of the Clinton administration to go after al Qaeda after the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole. Clinton officials decided just before Christmas 2000 to forward the plan to the incoming Bush administration rather than implement it during Clinton's final days, the officials said.

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Clinton never used the planes, except as unarmed spy drones, and the plan for armed drones wasn't forwarded to GWB until September, just after the attacks.I can't find any reference to the

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secret orders and presidential findings that Clinton had signed."

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But I bet it refers only to military orders - like the missile attacks and the attack on that pharmaceutical plant in North Africa (Sudan?).