|
Author
|
Topic: Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
|
Message 106 of 314 (127217)
07-24-2004 12:15 AM
|
Reply to: Message 74 by nator
07-22-2004 10:11 AM
|
|
bump for buz
Genesis 3:16 "To the woman he (God) said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you." You quote the above to contradict Pecos' claim that women and men are equal. You are actively promoting the idea that men should RULE OVER WOMEN. ...and thus, you support the oppression of women, buz. Please admit that you support the oppression of women, or explain how I am wrong about your motivations for posting this Genesis verse. Tally of times asked: 2
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by nator, posted 07-22-2004 10:11 AM | | nator has replied |
|
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
|
|
|
Message 107 of 314 (127283)
07-24-2004 9:23 AM
|
Reply to: Message 104 by nator
07-24-2004 12:07 AM
|
|
No, I am claiming that his analises doesn't mean doodely in the over all picture of how their marriage really is. I beg my wife for tool money, and she gives it to me, and we are both happy. Even if she says no, I am still happy. We give each other that respect.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 104 by nator, posted 07-24-2004 12:07 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by nator, posted 07-25-2004 9:44 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 108 of 314 (127289)
07-24-2004 10:22 AM
|
Reply to: Message 80 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 7:49 PM
|
|
Re: Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage
quote:
I believe the bible teaches us that it is a voluntary submission of the wife to the authority of the husband.
Who gave the husbands their authority? Please show me all the scripture where God decrees that a husband has authority over his wife/wives. As a Marine Corps veteran, I understand rank and authority. Since you were in the military, let me ask you this. For the purposes of this question your rank is SGT. OK. You and another SGT (both the exact same rank and both men) are given a project to accomplish. The project has various tasks to complete. Your CO did not specify who does what, just get the job done. How do you and the other SGT decide who does what to get the job done?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 7:49 PM | | Jasonb has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2004 12:34 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 109 of 314 (127292)
07-24-2004 11:18 AM
|
Reply to: Message 69 by Buzsaw
07-20-2004 11:50 PM
|
|
Re: Distorted
Genesis 3:16 "To the woman he (God) said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you." This is God's punishment for Eve. God didn't say this punishment continued for all women. In reading the OT, God seems to be very precise when he wishes curses or punishments to continue through the generations. Why does Christianity feel this applies to all women?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by Buzsaw, posted 07-20-2004 11:50 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
|
paisano
Member (Idle past 6453 days) Posts: 459 From: USA Joined: 05-07-2004
|
Re: Distorted
Since you were in the military, let me ask you this. For the purposes of this question your rank is SGT. OK. You and another SGT (both the exact same rank and both men) are given a project to accomplish. The project has various tasks to complete. Your CO did not specify who does what, just get the job done. How do you and the other SGT decide who does what to get the job done? By date of rank ? Sorry...not trying to be a pest.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 109 by purpledawn, posted 07-24-2004 11:18 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
|
Buzsaw
Inactive Member
|
Re: Distorted
This is God's punishment for Eve. God didn't say this punishment continued for all women. In reading the OT, God seems to be very precise when he wishes curses or punishments to continue through the generations. Why does Christianity feel this applies to all women? It's obvious that for the surpent and for Adam the curse for sin was to all descendents, the serpent becoming a belly crawler (imo previously the dinosaur large legged serpents) and the man needing to work hard for food. The land was cursed also, to include thorns and thistles, etc. Often this is the case in the OT. Another example is the descendents of Caanan, Ham's grandson whose descendents would become servants to the others and Babel where the one language was confounded and the people scattered, i.e. the origin of the races, language and cultures. As with Adam and the serpent, so with Eve in the garden. History has proven my point and now, revisionists want to change about everything natural and sensible to the problematic un-natural chaos we're merging into. Thus, the wrath of God upon mankind on time exactly as prophesied.
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 112 of 314 (127341)
07-24-2004 4:08 PM
|
Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
07-23-2004 7:32 PM
|
|
Re: Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage
quote:
It's been a way of life in human cultures since recorded history.
What has been a way of life?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Buzsaw, posted 07-23-2004 7:32 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 113 of 314 (127365)
07-24-2004 6:17 PM
|
Reply to: Message 111 by Buzsaw
07-24-2004 3:48 PM
|
|
Re: Distorted
Genesis 3:14... So the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all the livestock.... Genesis 3:16... To the woman he said, .... Genesis 3:17... To Adam he said, .... Cursed is the ground because of you;... you will eat of it all the days of your life. Not obvious! Taking the Bible at face value, the serpent and the ground were cursed. Adam and Eve were not cursed. Abel kept the flocks and Cain worked the soil. So Abel didn't work the ground.
Genesis 9:24-25
When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him. So he said, "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brothers." Noah cursed Canaan, not God and Canaan didn't even do anything. Are the descendants of Canaan servants today?
Genesis 11:6
The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.
11:7
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech."
11:8
So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. This one is even more interesting. It has been a while since I read this story. But no curse spoken here. God didn't say they did anything wrong, he just didn't like mankind working together to build the first skyscraper. In another thread Why Wasn't Jesus Married I commented quote:
Imagine if we took Adam's punishment literally.
No meat for men!
and Jex responded quote:
Not really the subject, but the whole eating grasses thing was overuled after the flood:
"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything" - Genesis 9 v.3
So Adam's punishment of not eating meat wasn't carried forward forever. So that should have released women from their punishment also. Flood wiped out everything, we are starting anew. "No" you groan, "That doesn't release women from Eve's punishment because it wasn't mentioned? You can't jump to that conclusion!" (Thought I'd save you a post.) quote:
...revisionists want to change about everything natural and sensible...
So you don't agree with anything I've said so far and it is obvious to you that the curses continue. Now for the questions: Whose sins did Jesus die for? Those in the past, present, future or all of them? Did Jesus pay the debt and mankind started with a clean slate, erasing all past punishments or do we still bear the burden of the sins, curses and punishments of the past? Has God forgotten the sins, but not the punishments?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by Buzsaw, posted 07-24-2004 3:48 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 115 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2004 12:49 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
Buzsaw
Inactive Member
|
Re: Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage
Please show me all the scripture where God decrees that a husband has authority over his wife/wives. Here are several:
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24 Genesis 2:18 And Jehovah God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in God. 1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of Elohim be not blasphemed. 5 I Peter 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him master: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 108 by purpledawn, posted 07-24-2004 10:22 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
|
Buzsaw
Inactive Member
|
Re: Distorted
Not obvious! Taking the Bible at face value, the serpent and the ground were cursed.
Adam and Eve were not cursed. It was indeed a curse on all.
Abel kept the flocks and Cain worked the soil. So Abel didn't work the ground. Both worked by the "sweat of their brow" to make a living
Genesis 9:24-25 When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him. So he said, "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brothers." Noah cursed Canaan, not God and Canaan didn't even do anything. Are the descendants of Canaan servants today? I'll let you check out the scriptures as to the descendents Caanan. You might want to do a google on the servant descendants of Caanan. It's a controversial subject and another topic.
Genesis 11:6 The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. 11:7 "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. This one is even more interesting. It has been a while since I read this story. But no curse spoken here. God didn't say they did anything wrong, he just didn't like mankind working together to build the first skyscraper. The word "curse" doesn't have to indicate every curse. The above was considered a curse to those on whom it was placed. They weren't happy about it, I'm sure and it affected all generations thereafter. We're dealing with the race problems to this day.
Has God forgotten the sins, but not the punishments? Individual sins shouldn't be confused with degenerative curses. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
|
|
|
Message 116 of 314 (127436)
07-25-2004 6:17 AM
|
Reply to: Message 114 by Buzsaw
07-25-2004 12:34 AM
|
|
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Just curious, because you never answered me before - do you believe that, by the same logic, this passage precludes the use of anesthesia during labor in an effort to ameliorate the "sorrow" of childbirth? (Or the use of anti-depressants to combat postpartum depression?) Is it against God's will for me to buy bread in the grocery store instead of toiling in the field to grow wheat? (I do have a job, but "toiling in the field" would be potentially the least accurate description possible of what I do.) If not, then isn't the reasonable and consistent interpretation of this passage not that it's God's plan for men to rule women, but that men will have a natural and degeneritive tendancy to try to rule women, which constitutes the curse? (Much as we don't have to put up with toiling in the soil for bread when we can buy it at the store?) I'd say there's a big difference between a curse that says "men will rule over you" and one that says "you will submit to men."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2004 12:34 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
|
|
Message 117 of 314 (127468)
07-25-2004 9:44 AM
|
Reply to: Message 107 by riVeRraT
07-24-2004 9:23 AM
|
|
quote:
No, I am claiming that his analises doesn't mean doodely in the over all picture of how their marriage really is.
I would tend to agree, but I was just providing a counter example to his.
quote:
I beg my wife for tool money, and she gives it to me, and we are both happy. Even if she says no, I am still happy. We give each other that respect.
According to buzsaw, you don't have a correct Christian marriage because you allow your wife to lead you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by riVeRraT, posted 07-24-2004 9:23 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 136 by riVeRraT, posted 07-26-2004 2:38 AM | | nator has not replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
|
|
Message 118 of 314 (127470)
07-25-2004 9:51 AM
|
Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
07-23-2004 7:32 PM
|
|
Re: Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage
quote:
It's been a way of life in human cultures since recorded history.
Do you mean the domination of women by men has been a way of life in human cultures since recorded history? Actually, that's not true across the board. Several Native American cultures, primarily Iroquois, are matriarchal. Southern India had several matriarchal districts in the past, and a small district is still as such today. There are others.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Buzsaw, posted 07-23-2004 7:32 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
|
|
Message 119 of 314 (127471)
07-25-2004 9:54 AM
|
Reply to: Message 105 by nator
07-24-2004 12:11 AM
|
|
Re: bump for buz
Buzsaw, do you believe that having a leader/follower type marriage leads to the "follower" being reduced to engaging in childlike behavior, such as begging for money? Please answer. Tally of times asked: 5
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 105 by nator, posted 07-24-2004 12:11 AM | | nator has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2004 10:41 AM | | nator has replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
|
|
Message 120 of 314 (127472)
07-25-2004 9:55 AM
|
Reply to: Message 106 by nator
07-24-2004 12:15 AM
|
|
Re: bump for buz
Genesis 3:16 "To the woman he (God) said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you." You quote the above to contradict Pecos' claim that women and men are equal. You are actively promoting the idea that men should RULE OVER WOMEN. ...and thus, you support the oppression of women, buz. Please admit that you support the oppression of women, or explain how I am wrong about your motivations for posting this Genesis verse. Tally of times asked: 3
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by nator, posted 07-24-2004 12:15 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 129 by nator, posted 07-25-2004 7:24 PM | | nator has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2