no action on racist/sexist jokes thread

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the idea that white people are repressed has been proven by supreme court cases in which people were denied jobs or school entrance because they were not minorities. welcome to reality.

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Yes. Becuase we cannot let the old boys network run unchallenged.

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it is a reasonable reaction to people who take afirmative action too far.

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It is not; hostility to affirmative action is a call for racism to be re-implemented.This message has been edited by contracycle, 08-06-2004 08:13 AM

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Men face more. This has already been shown.

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If so, I missed it, please cite. Last stats I saw men were much more likly to be killed by a stranger.

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shifting goal posts....

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Why is that shifting goalpoasts?

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I have already launched my critique of this position. Maybe you should go back and reply to it if you have any issue with my cirtique, instead of restating the argument I have already addressed.

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Mostly becuase I was away, and mostly because I was responding to a point on this thread. For the record, I disagree with your position; again, its like you are wholly unfamiliar with feminist argument on this topic, so I'm not sure where to start.

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I was not trying to say that no one can be emotionally scarred from such incidents. What I was saying is that society (as a whole) treats sexual assault and rape victims in such a way as to prolong their agony.

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Yes, that is true. One such example would be the presumption that a womans sexual history somehow undermines the criminality of the assualt she suffered, and so her sexuality is on trial as much as her rapist.

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While the "average" rape or assault is just like any other assault (a singular incident one can normally recover from quickly) there should be no particular expectations one way or the other for any specific victim. But there is, and for the most part it is consistently (especially in the media) playing up how damaging it MUST be, and how DAMAGED a person will remain.

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Well, thats rather unsurprising to me considering the degree of trauma that is often reported. I'm not sure one persons claim that they individually wopuld have got over it can be taken as indicative that the whole perception is mistaken.

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For a person that is so super sensitive to propaganda making life worse for people that you lack almost all humor, I am surprised you are not backing me on this.

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I note the appearance of the standard slander that ant-racists are humourless. I am not humourless because I do not share racist jokes; that only indicates I am not a racist. So back off on that issue.And secondly, I think it is more important that we recognise the trauma, and construct appropriate responses such as womens shelters, that deal with the practical issues. I disagree with you that the recognition of the trauma of rape is either false, exaggerated, or creates an artificial climate of fear.

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In fact, your implication (from a specific incident) that most women are told to get over it and move on, and not treated as perennial victims, just seems absurd... ESPECIALLY IF YOU READ FEMINIST LITERATURE!

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This makes no sense. Did the world suddenly change while I wasn't looking and is now run on feminist principles? Why would I expect my reading of feminist literature to have an impact on the world?The fact that women are frequently told to "just get over it" is a demonstration of how misogynistic our society remains. I note Germain Greer remarked yesterday that Feminism was widely considered dead and buried by everyone outside the universities.This message has been edited by contracycle, 08-06-2004 08:28 AM

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Erm, others didn't use simile, you see. Its a thing called "grammar".

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Nope, it's a thing called self-rightousness and false morals. It is your claim that a joke no matter what the context or intent is dehumanizing...and you claim this does not apply to you.

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LOL!!! Go, on show me.

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Take your pick of references in your posts referring to Goebels, the Nazi's or the holocaust. You have repeatedly put what people have said in this and two Coffee House threads on par with the atrocities committed by the Nazi's.

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Your ignorance is not my problem, especially when you demand the slightest statement be backed by incontrovertible proof.

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No, your ignorance is your problem. And I did not ask for the slightest statement to be backed up..I asked for any statement of yours to be backed up with something other than your own pathetic personal anecdote...your creationist-like whiny response to this request shows how intellectually committed (or ill informed) to the subject

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And your agreement that something is offensive is not something I require before I am offended. So in short, fuck off and stop playing these childish games.

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However, according to you (see any of your asinine messages to mark24), YOUR agreement IS required to determine if someone has or has not been offended...so it is you with the overblown self importance who should fuck off and stop playing childish games. If you are such a pathetic sensitive priss then don't visit this site. Get in a bomb shelter and lock the door and stay there for the rest of your life where the only thing you can be offended by is yourself.

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Hypocrite.

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How so?

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Where have I done so? Put up or shut up, Mamathus.

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First reference to jews in the context of comparing the holocaust to humor

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Actually, I don't assume that at all, any more than I assume that 60 million germans were suddenly possessed of a strange hatred for jews. What I think is that a lot of well meaning people do hatefull things becuase they do not think about the consequences of their actions.......No you may not. On the other hand, I'm sure you must be outraged by the character assassiination of Joseph Goebbels, the well known jokester.

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Here is another one in response to mark24 saying he is not offended by jokes about the english

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When the Nazi's produced anti-semitic cartoons, when hitler wrote about the evil Jew purposefully contaminating the Aryan bloodline, Jews are NOT THE AUDIENCE. Other Aryans are the audience; the aim is to dehumanise Jews in the eyes of other Aryans, not in the Jews own eyes.

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so whether you FEEL dehumanised or not is wholly, completely, totally, IRRELEVANT. This is not feel-good hippy shit; its the manipulation of social signs.

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Here is another logic free meandering with reference yet again to the holocaust and how comedians must be responsible

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Well, America committed genocide against the Indians, and exhibits a lot of tolerance for racism. England slaughtered millions in Africa, and also has a whole tradition of racist humour. The German Nazi's definitely produced "humorous" cartoons and jokes to dehumanise Jews. So yes, there is a correlation - and it is in fact precisely the American tolerahnce of racism that elad to Abu Ghraib.

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There are several others where you either equate the holocaust with humor or those who tell jokes or imply that jokes are the main causitive factor for genocide...and to show how non-racist you are and non exclusionist..here is what you call (not that you would dehumanize anyone ) minorities who would disagree with you

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Yes, there are. They are known as Uncle Tom's and House Niggers.

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so you are both a racist and a hypocriteThis message has been edited by Mammuthus, 08-06-2004 08:53 AM

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As an aside, maybe you would enjoy reading more about women who have gone toe to toe with the toughest of men, becoming leaders of them. And it's not like I'm talking about Amazons. Just start looking up details on famous women pirates. Ohhhh boy. Those girls lived among rapists and murderers and made their way to the top.

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I consider this a totally invalid argument. The fact that some individuals break through the stereotypes and barriers does not reduce the significane of those barriers, nor does it imply that oppression is self-inflicted. Thats like saying that slavery didn;t matter, becuase some slaveds managed to revolt; therefore slaves that do not revolt must be oppressing themselves. That is not at all valid IMO; what the risings demonstrate is that slavery is not voluntary and will be resisted. We have no reight to insist that every woman become a superhero merely to have the same freedoms men enjoy - that is once again to blame the victim for their victimhood and transpose responsibility for their status to them.

[qupte] Nope, it's a thing called self-rightousness and false morals. It is your claim that a joke no matter what the context or intent is dehumanizing...and you claim this does not apply to you.[/quote]No, I claimes a RACIST or SEXIST joke is inherently dehumanising, and I have never claimed it does not apply to me. Your logic-fu is weak.

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Take your pick of references in your posts to Goebels, the Nazi's or the holocaust. You have repeatedly put what people have said in this and two Coffee House threads on par with the atrocities committed by the Nazi's.

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Correct, I have, But I have never done so on the basis of typology or membership of an involuntary group (sex, race, nationality). And seeing as I am thyus not appealing to a sterotype, it is merely offensive, not dehumanising.

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No, your ignorance is your problem. And I did not ask for the slightest statement to be backed up..I asked for any statement of yours to be backed up with something other than your own pathetic personal anecdote...your creationist-like whiny response to this request shows how intellectually committed (or ill informed) to the subject

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And as with Holmes, I have neither the time nor the inclination to be your personal tutor. You igorance of sociology is not my problem; in the words of Kelis, I could teach you, but I'd have to charge.[qupte] However, according to you (see any of your asinine messages to mark24), YOUR agreement IS required to determine if someone has or has not been offended...[/quote]I have never made any such claim. As I pointed out to Mark24, the issue of offence is separate from the issue of dehumanisationl; you are merely making the same sophomore error of conflating dehumanisation and offence.

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If you are such a pathetic sensitive priss then don't visit this site. Get in a bomb shelter and lock the door and stay there for the rest of your life where the only thing you can be offended by is yourself.

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No; I will not be intimidated by racist scum. It is they who can hide in holes like the roaches they are.[qupte] There are several others where you either equate the holocaust with humor or those who tell jokes or imply that jokes are the main causitive factor for genocide...[/quote]Thats directly false. I have ommitted your alleged demonstrations, as you clearly either didn;t read them or couldn't follow them; either way they don;t show what you seem to think they show. However, I have never said jokes were a MAIN causative factor; I said they were a significant part of racist dehumanisation as a precursor to violence. And that remains the case regardless of your willfill distortion of my argument.[qupte] and to show how non-racist you are and non exclusionist..here is what you call (not that you would dehumanize anyone ) minorities who would disagree with you.[/quote]Ha ha. And where does the term "uncle tom" or "house nigger" apply a condemnation or stereotype of an ethnic group? Clearly, I am describing particular, behaviourally defined sub-groups, not an ethnic group en bloc.So once again you demonstrate that you don't know your arse from your elbow in regards this topic. You deliberately conflate offense with dhumanisation to make a false rhetorical point, and conflate insult with racism to make a further false rehtorical point. This remains a childish game, Mammuthus.

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No, I claimes a RACIST or SEXIST joke is inherently dehumanising, and I have never claimed it does not apply to me. Your logic-fu is weak.

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You have never demonstrated or supported your claim and you have used offensive terminology yourself and claim that you are somehow above all us "EvC racist scum". You would make an excellent creationist apologetic...they also lack reason or ethics.

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Correct, I have, But I have never done so on the basis of typology or membership of an involuntary group (sex, race, nationality). And seeing as I am thyus not appealing to a sterotype, it is merely offensive, not dehumanising.

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Oh, so now context and tone does matter? make up your mind.

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And as with Holmes, I have neither the time nor the inclination to be your personal tutor. You igorance of sociology is not my problem; in the words of Kelis, I could teach you, but I'd have to charge.

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...and the dog ate your homework to I guess? Nice excuse.

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I have never made any such claim. As I pointed out to Mark24, the issue of offence is separate from the issue of dehumanisationl; you are merely making the same sophomore error of conflating dehumanisation and offence.

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And you are granting yourself the sole authority to determine what is or is not dehumanizing...so far you definition is that anything you say is not, anything anybody else says is. That might make you feel important but it does not reflect reality.

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No; I will not be intimidated by racist scum. It is they who can hide in holes like the roaches they are.

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You must be a very lonely person who looks over his shoulder constantly and thinks the government is trying to implant spying devices in his ass while he sleeps..

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However, I have never said jokes were a MAIN causative factor; I said they were a significant part of racist dehumanisation as a precursor to violence. And that remains the case regardless of your willfill distortion of my argument.

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the world is not black and white contracycle. Neo-nazi's in Germany currently use email spam and rock music to distribute their message of hate throughout Germany and the rest of the world. So is email and rock music a significant part of racist dehumanization and a precursor to violence? Why is it everyone else EXCEPT for you seems to be able to distinguish between when a joke has the intent to insult or when it is intended to be humorous? It is your social failings not anybody elses that are the crux of the problem.

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Ha ha. And where does the term "uncle tom" or "house nigger" apply a condemnation or stereotype of an ethnic group? Clearly, I am describing particular, behaviourally defined sub-groups, not an ethnic group en bloc.

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So only insulting sub groups of ethnic groups is ok? fine, I will only make ethnic jokes restricted to minorities named Bob. Glad I am not free from any chance of making an off color joke like you are..but keep this magic trick quiet or everyone else might start using it to...I won't tell if you don't

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So once again you demonstrate that you don't know your arse from your elbow in regards this topic.

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You may feel pumped up in your false sense of superiority...but you have failed miserably to demonstrate that everyone here is a racist or sexist. You seem to spend an awful lot of time generating conflict for your own personal pleasure. Maybe if you redirected yourself to where problems actually exist you would become a productive member of society as opposed to an internet troll.

Please, affirmative action is liking putting a band-aid on a cancer patient. It may cover some immediate open sores, but meanwhile the real nastiness is still eating the patient from the inside.

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"Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine, it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read, 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous, and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.' The page has been universally condemned by church leaders."
-Rob Grant and Doug Naylor

contracyle,http://EvC Forum: Racist, Sexist and other-ist JokesMark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

regards,
Esteban "Dehuman" HambreThis message has been edited by MrHambre, 08-06-2004 05:13 PM

Yeah, you tend to miss things. No I won't cite, you can go back as easily as I can, and the stats were that men are more likely to be killed by violence period (I am unsure what the stranger/known percentages are). Since violence itself (the topic under discussion) could not be used to prove the point, you began adding elements which changes the nature of the discussion. If it had started with those elements the debate would have been different.Kind of like, look stats show women are at risk... no actually they aren't when placed relative to men's risks... oh, then look at all the discrepencies in pay (as if that adds to the earlier point). The debate here is not whether I am familiar with feminist arguments on this topic. So this should be real easy. You start by saying what YOU think is wrong with my argument. 2nd thread, same consistent problem. I already agree with the above statement and never said anything against it. It wasn't part of the discussion. I'm sure you think you made some point, but all you did was construct a strawman (if you think I was against this), or delivered a monologue.Oh, just to let you know you sexist jerk, the above goes for men too. I see, the claims of people that never had it happen to them should be taken instead. Good thinking.My entire position is that every case will be different and so should not be prejudged. But the average trauma should be like any other average trauma. It takes time to heal... times will differ, but the average certainly isn't a lifelong tragedy. You are humorless because you can't tell what a racist joke is to the point that even innocent humor is racist. Recognition of trauma is not what I was fighting and so you are not disagreeing with me at all. Find someone else to build your strawmen around. And by this you mean Africa right? Maybe that explains why I don't see your examples in my life. If you are talking about US society, I would like to know how you know what OUR society does at all.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

pft.changing policies does nothing to change the hearts of fools. the only real way to end racism is through psychological programing and we don't live in that kind of country (yet. i dare not think what could happen after november...)