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Author Topic:   Intelligence
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 25 of 84 (138700)
09-01-2004 1:22 AM


Does anyone know if there are any accurate IQ tests on the internet? I've taken numerous but I have serious doubts as to the validity of some of them. It can be hard to correlate the results, too. If you aren't given a percentile ranking, you have to have some idea which scale you're working on.
I've scored as high as 171, but frankly, I don't trust these online tests; 171 sounds way too high, I don't think I'm anywhere near that. And even if it is accurate, I have no idea what scale it was using.
I honestly think that some of those tests are designed solely to massage your ego; "Oh wow! Look how smart you are!"
So anyway, are there any online tests that give anything approaching realistic results?

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-01-2004 8:25 AM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 27 of 84 (139075)
09-02-2004 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Mission for Truth
09-01-2004 8:25 AM


Hey Mission! Thanks for the link. I took the "Ultimate IQ Test" and scored 148.
Actually, I'm kind of pissed off now that I didn't try harder on those "Which of these can not be created from the unfolded pattern?" questions. Some of them were obvious but I didn't stay too long on the ones that weren't. Now I'm wishing I had. Unfortunately, when I'm sitting there looking at the blasted things I just don't have the patience.
I still can't help but wonder, though, how accurate are these, really?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-01-2004 8:25 AM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-02-2004 10:47 AM Tony650 has replied
 Message 29 by coffee_addict, posted 09-02-2004 11:24 AM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 31 of 84 (139458)
09-03-2004 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Mission for Truth
09-02-2004 10:47 AM


Re: lol
Mission for Truth writes:
I have no patience for the unfolded pattern questions as well! But oh well.
Yeah, a couple of them were obvious; I recall at least one that I could see right away but I lost patience with the others. I could probably figure them out if I were willing to spend a while on them, but meh.
I should probably do it again and see if I can work out which ones I got wrong. They don't actually list the correct answers anywhere, do they?
Mission for Truth writes:
I don't think it's that accurate of a test either. Although, you can see the difference between people who try it.
That's true. I beat you! Nya nya!
Mission for Truth writes:
But it certainly doesn't map the entire dynamics of one's intellect - I think most would agree.
To be honest, I doubt there is any single test that can; I think there are just too many facets of human intelligence to take into account.
It could probably be done but I think it would require a series of tests, each dedicated to a specific aspect of the subject's intellect. However, if it were to be comprehensive enough to, as you say, "map the entire dynamics of one's intellect," it would probably take too long to be feasible.
Just my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-02-2004 10:47 AM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-03-2004 11:48 AM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 32 of 84 (139463)
09-03-2004 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by coffee_addict
09-02-2004 11:24 AM


Darth Mal writes:
I once took an online IQ test that resulted in the 70's. Guess I wasn't as smart as I hoped I was.
Depends what kind of test it was. There are so called "culture fair" tests you can do. I don't know if that was an issue with the one you took.
It also depends how much prior knowledge was necessary to do the test. Some require a certain degree of education in mathematics, English, history, geography, etc.
I believe that true intelligence has little to do with what you actually know and more to do with how well you adapt; how easily you learn new things, apply new information, etc.
Anyone can memorize facts but it takes more than the rote method to apply them. Knowing is one thing, understanding is quite another. In this regard, I would think more of someone who can, for example, find the solution to a relatively simple math problem despite having no prior education in mathematics, than someone who can find the solution to a complex math problem simply because they've been taught how to.
I don't think that education and IQ necessarily go hand-in-hand, although I would say that someone with a high IQ is likely to find education (and learning, in general) easier than someone with a low IQ.
Anyway, I'm rambling. To summarize; don't feel bad about a low score on one specific test, Lam. I think a person's IQ tends to come out a lot in their words; I've been reading your posts since you started on EvC and I have no doubt as to your intelligence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by coffee_addict, posted 09-02-2004 11:24 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 34 of 84 (139624)
09-03-2004 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Mission for Truth
09-03-2004 11:48 AM


Re: lol
Mission for Truth writes:
That was exactly how I was going to reply to your post before you said it.
Great minds think alike.
Mission for Truth writes:
The difference between intellect is majorly influenced by a person's ability to mentally adapt...
Yes, I think so. I think you can improve your performance in just about any activity if you do it enough. This includes standardized IQ tests. But I think it is much harder (although I won't say impossible) to improve your ability to deal with scenarios that are new to you.
Some people handle new situations well, others not. I think this is something which is a little more inherent in your mental makeup and where, in my opinion, true intelligence lies.
Person A might be outgunned by person B who is, say, a mathematician, in solving a mathematical equation; does this mean the mathematician is the more intelligent of the two? Possibly. However, what if we were to present both of them with a problem, the methodology of which neither of them were familiar, and person A found the solution first? This, in my opinion, is what intelligence is really about. The ability to deal with the new and unfamiliar.
If we are to use IQ tests as our gauge of intelligence, I would be inclined to ask the subject what they achieved on their first IQ test, based on the simple assumption that one goes into their first test not knowing what to expect (within reason).
But even then, I have my doubts. I had literally no idea what to expect on my first test and made a point of always remembering my very first result; 159. Frankly, this would put me in the league of certain people that I simply can't fathom myself being up there with, so can even my "first test" hypothesis be relied on?
Mission for Truth writes:
And yes, you beat me, congratulations.... you bugger.
Heh, don't worry; I'm sure there are plenty you'd kick my ass on.
Mission for Truth writes:
I found the most difficult question on the test to be number 14, "determine the next item in the series J,I,H,G,K,F,A" which is located next to a simple looking diagram. Not simple enough for me I guess! I don't even have a guiding clue.
Yeah, if you mean the one I think you do, that was frustrating. I don't recall exactly but I think it was hexagonal (or something like that) with "paths" connecting each of the letters. Some had one path, some had two, some had three, some paths were a simple line, some had "bulges" on one end, some had them on both, ARGH!
That's one of those ones I just lost patience with, in the end. I mentally shuffled through as many things as I could be bothered, trying to find some association between the paths, the letters, the pattern...anything. Ugh! I gave up.
Mission for Truth writes:
The second place runner up was the baffling "If the day before two days after the day before tomorrow is Monday, what day is today?"
Really? Oddly enough, I've always found questions like that pretty easy. I'm not gloating or anything; it's just interesting how different people can find such differing degrees of challenge in the same problem. There are probably certain types of questions that would baffle me but be a snap for you.
Mission for Truth writes:
My guess is Sunday but it's only a guess.
Your guess is correct.
If you have trouble with questions like that try reading them backwards. (These examples are a little hard on the eyes in preview, so I'll put them in quote boxes).
"The day before tomorrow" is today.
"Two days after that" is two days from today (the day after tomorrow).
"The day before that" is tomorrow.
Tomorrow is Monday.
Therefore today is Sunday.
You can even do it in a quasi-mathematical way, if you find that easier.
"The day before two days after" = "The day after"
"The day before tomorrow" = "Today"
...so...
"The day before two days after the day before tomorrow" = "The day after today"
"The day after today" = "Tomorrow"
"Tomorrow" = "Monday"
Therefore...
"Today" = "Sunday"
I can't say this would be my preferred method but it seems to work for those kinds of questions.
Mission for Truth writes:
And Tony, remember what the test said in the intro, "If you feel your IQ is much higher then 140 we recommend trying our test for exceptional intelligence." OOO-lala.
Indeed. Honestly, I don't believe that I possess "exceptional intelligence" but I'll take a look at the test some time. I don't suppose you want to tell me how you scored, so I'll know what I'm trying to beat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-03-2004 11:48 AM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-03-2004 6:37 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 39 of 84 (143743)
09-21-2004 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Mission for Truth
09-03-2004 6:37 PM


Re: lol
Mission for Truth writes:
I haven't actually tried to complete that particular test yet, but I will, and when I find my score I'll post it here.
That's cool. I was actually just kidding so don't stress out about it.
I still haven't done the "exceptional intelligence" test. I was going to but I got distracted by Mike's link (thanks Mike ). If you're interested, I got 162. Eh, that can't be accurate. No way. In any case, my apologies for not doing the other test yet. I'm sure I'll get around to it some time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-03-2004 6:37 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 09-21-2004 10:43 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 41 of 84 (143830)
09-22-2004 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
09-21-2004 10:43 PM


Re: lol
Mike writes:
162? - Are you sure you can't see fifth dimensionally?
Ha! Very sure; I've been trying for years. Can you? If so (or even if not), go here.
Incidentally, that's not the highest score I've ever achieved. I have scored as high as 171, but as I've said before, I doubt the accuracy of these online tests. On some scales, a score like that would place me above Stephen Hawking, and somehow I don't think that's the case.
Mike writes:
Or are you a closet Einstein?
Oh sure! In fact, I'm just throwing together a paper that will overturn Relativity Theory. You know...I was bored and there was nothing on TV, so it kills some time. Oops, I'd better call Sweden and get them to hold my prize for me.
*returns to reality*
But seriously, I'm nothing special. Putting aside any false modesty for a moment, I do believe that I'm "smarter than the average bear" but I don't think I'm a genius, supremely gifted or anything else of the kind. If pressed for an honest self-evaluation, I would say that I think I am "above average" but that's all.
Certainly not far enough to put me on par with many of the posters here, some of whom I suspect are waaay above average. Frankly, there are people on this forum that make me feel like an idiot. Now, I realize that much of this is due to the difference between their and my education and not necessarily intelligence, but I have some idea what is required to earn those degrees, and I think a little intelligence helps.
Mike writes:
Oh I'm far too frightened of that one, I'd rather comfort my ego and do the easy ones and convince myself they're tough.
Us mere mortals Tony - who don't get posted for poster of the year, need some ego comfort.
Heh, how true.
Don't worry, though; if it's designed for those with extremely high IQs then I probably won't do that well. Then you can say, "Nya nya, my score's higher than yours!"
You know what I'd be interested in seeing? Brad's score on one of these. Seriously. I know we kid about him but I am actually quite curious how he would go. Perhaps that's just me.
Or even better yet, a test designed and written by Brad. Can you imagine that? I would project an IQ of about 20 for myself, and that's allowing for the questions that I accidentally get right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 09-21-2004 10:43 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by mike the wiz, posted 09-22-2004 1:21 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 48 of 84 (144002)
09-23-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by mike the wiz
09-22-2004 1:21 PM


Re: lol
Mike writes:
Lol. I guess you have a point.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to think I'm in the league of Hawking, but I know in my heart that it just ain't so.
Mike writes:
As for fifth dimensions, I have trouble imagining two.
On the other hand, perhaps I am up there with Hawking. I have no problem with three-dimensional concepts and visualization, and in A Brief History of Time, Hawking says that he personally finds it "hard enough to visualize three-dimensional space." *cough* Yeah, right! I'm sure he finds it reeeeeally difficult! [ / sarcasm ]
But seriously, if anyone can do it (conceptualize higher dimensions), I'm sure he can. Hell, if the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics can't do it, what possible hope do I have?
Incidentally, feel free to jump in on that thread, if you wish. You needn't be able to actually tell me how to visualize 4D space; even if you just have something relevant to add, you're more than welcome. Heh, if I were to limit the thread to those with an in-depth understanding of the concept, it wouldn't leave too many to participate.
I accept that I'm not going to be able to do it any time soon (if ever). All the topic was really intended as was a stepping stone for me to learn a bit more and become better acquainted with the concept. So don't worry if you're not an "expert," I'm sure as hell not!
Also, you say five-dimensional; I assume this is because you're including a temporal dimension as well. That's quite alright; I just wanted to be clear that as far as spatial dimensions go, I'm only focusing on four, for the time being. Naturally, this means that my aim is the visualization of five-dimensional space/time. I just wanted to clarify that in case you were actually referring to five-dimensional space. If you were...well, you know..."Walk before you run."
Hmm...I'm off topic...again. Ugh! You see, Mike? That's what happens when you bring up dimensions in front of me. It's a concept I love with a fervour like no other, and when it's mentioned, I can't shut up about it! Buggered if I know why it fascinates me so much, mind you, but it does. *shrug*
Mike writes:
Well, yes, an IQ test can only tell you so much I suppose. I think it is one aspect of intelligence. But then, you might just be good at IQ tests.
Yes, that's true. In fact, I believe I made this point earlier in the thread; you can improve your performance in pretty much any activity, if you do it enough. This includes standardized IQ tests.
My "solution" was to say that if we are to go by our IQ score then we should go by our very first, as that's the point at which we are least familiar with the process. Unfortunately, nothing is fool-proof; on my very first IQ test I scored 159. Suffice it to say, I still think this is way too high for me. So, you know...take all of this with a grain of salt.
But getting back to intelligence itself...
As I stated previously, I believe that true intelligence is not what you know, but how well (how quickly, easily, etc) you adapt to what you don't know. Give someone a puzzle, the methodology of which they've been taught, and they solve it; that shows education. Give someone a puzzle, the likes of which they've never encountered, and they solve it; that shows intelligence.
So I suppose, in a sense, I view intelligence as being more akin to ingenuity, or creativity than simply knowledge. It's more than finding a solution you've been shown how to find; it's finding a solution that you can't even be sure exists; it's being resourceful enough to come up with your own working methodology, in the absence of one.
You know what? I think I just had an epiphany. Perhaps this is what Einstein meant when he said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge." I've never considered that before! I only know the quote, I don't know the context it was written/spoken in so he may have elaborated on it, but as it stands, that gave me a new perspective on it.
Of course, I could be flat-out wrong, too. He may have meant something entirely different. Still, it's a thought that hadn't occurred to me before. Outstanding! Thanks, Mike!
Mike writes:
Either way, ur not a monkey so be grateful.
Hey, there are plenty of worse things to be than a monkey. I could have been a tapeworm. Ugh! Now there's an "interesting" thought.
Mike writes:
Just as long as the answers are there for him to choose from eh, I don't think the computer could handle his response.
Yup, it would have to be multiple choice.
Mike writes:
It would *sizzle* and say "Unnacceptable, cannot compute, no omniscient buffer in place"
He should be a programmer; the only line he'd ever need to be familiar with is "Bad command or file name."
Ack! I can't help myself, can I? Hey Brad, if you're reading this, my apologies; I know I shouldn't joke at your expense. I don't mean any disrespect, and you seem to have a sense of humour, so I hope it's cool. It's nothing personal and I intend no offence.
Mike writes:
Honestly tho, I do think Brad will have a high IQ.
Believe it or not, I agree. I have always had the sense that he is bright and knowledgeable, just not especially articulate. As I said before, knowledge doesn't make one intelligent, but I do believe that Brad has both. At the very least, he has some knowledge; of that I am quite confident. He certainly appears to know something...whatever it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by mike the wiz, posted 09-22-2004 1:21 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-24-2004 4:25 PM Tony650 has replied
 Message 51 by mike the wiz, posted 09-25-2004 5:29 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 50 of 84 (144491)
09-24-2004 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Mission for Truth
09-24-2004 4:25 PM


Re: lol
Hi Mission.
Well, yeah, it is true, as far as that test goes. But as I've said before, I don't think my actual IQ is anywhere near that.
As for that question, honestly, I just did it in my head. It really isn't a very hard one, assuming I'm looking at the right question.
12. John weighs 85 kilograms. Jeff weighs 105 kilograms. Jake weighs 115 kilograms. Two of them standing together on the same scale could weigh 200 kilograms.
John weighs 85 kg and Jake weighs 115 kg, so if John and Jake were standing together on the same scale, they would weigh a total of 200 kg (85 + 115).
Therefore the answer is "True"...I hope that made sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-24-2004 4:25 PM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-27-2004 12:42 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 54 of 84 (145375)
09-28-2004 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by mike the wiz
09-25-2004 5:29 PM


Re: lol
Mike writes:
This does NOT bode well for me.
I declare your babble most unacceptable!
Heh, fair enough.
Mike writes:
Hey Tony, you've lost me.
Sorry about that. You understand the concept of four-dimensional space/time, right? Any event requires four co-ordinates to plot; x-axis, y-axis, z-axis and time. So in that sense we are already able to visualize four-dimensional spaces/bodies, as those familiar to us already have length, width, height and duration.
What I'm focusing on (for now) is space/time with one more spatial dimension than we are familiar with. This would be five-dimensional space/time. Spaces/bodies would have four spatial dimensions and duration.
The reason that I generally refer to them as "four-dimensional" is the same reason we generally refer to familiar things as "three-dimensional"; by and large, we don't bother to take time into account. We don't think of a cube as being "four-dimensional including time." Since any familiar thing you care to mention has duration, it seems a bit redundant. I mean, as opposed to what? How do you visualize anything without duration?
It's a rather pointless distinction for the purpose of my discussion. As time is so ingrained on our psyche, it is pretty much a given; everything we visualize will have duration regardless of how many spatial dimensions it has, so I tend to just omit the temporal dimension altogether and focus on the spatial dimensions themselves.
Hmm...I hope I didn't just confuse you even more. Did that make things any clearer, or just worse?
Mike writes:
I read your topic about dimensions and believe me, I'm uselessly avoiding such a thread.
Noooooo, don't avoid it! By all means, jump in! Don't worry about not being an expert...I'm certainly not.
If the concept really overwhelms you, feel free to just ask some questions. I'll take a shot at them myself if nobody else does. I'm no mathematician but I know a lot more about this than the average layman. And if I can't give you an answer, there are plenty of others that I know can.
Oh and thanks for reading it, too. I appreciate you taking the time; it's nice to know that my topic wasn't completely wasted.
Mike writes:
All you need to know is that mike got 140, and that the IQ test we took is the hardest one ever, even Einstein scored 100 on it.
Well, in that case, my 162 must put me up there with the likes of Marilyn Vos Savant.
Mike writes:
Phew, there is hope. I do have an imagination, and vivid dreams.
I would say that I have both, too. As a child, my favourite activity in school was always story writing.
In fact, my dreams have actually given me some terrific ideas for stories, on occasion. I don't know if this happens to anyone else but I have, from time to time, actually dreamt entire stories which were not only vivid, but very logical and plot driven. Sometimes they have even been cast with familiar actors.
It's the weirdest feeling; sometimes it's very much like just sitting and watching a movie, others it is more interactive and I am actually a participant in the goings on. Now that I think about it, I don't recall having a really good one for some time, but I have to say that some of my best ideas were originally realized as dreams.
Some of them have even had surprise endings. It seems strange to me that a creation of my own imagination can actually surprise me with a twist ending, but somehow, it has done it. And if that isn't weird enough, some of them have been consistent to the point of actually explaining certain events from earlier in the dream which may not have made sense initially, but all fall into place in light of the "unexpected" twist. It's like my mind knew, in advance, how it was going to end the "story," but somehow still managed to surprise me with it!
I have no idea how this works or what it means, though. Perhaps my mind just works overtime. Whatever it is, it feels kind of like seeing a really cool movie; I'll wake up and think, "Wow! That was terrific!"
Any dream experts out there? Is this kind of thing common or am I a freak?
Mike writes:
Lucid dreaming is also fun.
I love lucid dreams! I haven't had one of those for a while either but I think I've just become lazy. I was working on having them a year or two back, with some degree of success. I'd already had them before but never "on purpose." I just knew they were great fun when they happened, so I started researching them and practicing techniques to induce them.
Mike writes:
Oh that reminds me, is sleep to enter another dimension? (Tony rant, incoming)
Me? Rant? When have I ever been known to do that?
Anyway, no, I doubt that sleeping is "entering another dimension." I'm pretty sure you'll find that sleep is simply your body's "recharging" state.
Mike writes:
Anway, I like art, does this mean I'm intelligent?? *hopes*...cos I do like painting.
I like art, too. Especially nudes...*cough*...but enough about my artistic tastes.
I really only dabble in "3D computer art" myself. I don't really draw or paint but I do have an appreciation for them. Still, I doubt that a simple appreciation for art is a direct indication of intelligence, any more than a love of music, film or anything else.
An aptitude in the respective medium may indicate it, but even then, it's a little too narrow to really define as "intelligence." "Skill," perhaps, or "talent," but "intelligence" I think is much broader.
For example, I'm fairly musically inclined. My instruments of choice are the guitar and piano/keyboards, but give me five minutes with just about any instrument and I'll get a tune out of it. It may not rival Vivaldi's Four Seasons but it will be a song of some sort.
Anyway, I've been told that my ear for music is a sign of intelligence but I really don't think that is so. I think, at best, it is a sign of one specific branch of intelligence, but to say that it shows that I'm intelligent is, I think, generalizing one particular skill a little too far.
Of course, this is just my take on it.
Mike writes:
He was modest and said he has specialised knowledge. *Yeah right*.
I think Brad has a fairly broad knowledge base. I repeat: I think. He may have specialized knowledge in something but I can't tell what. He may even have stated it previously, but I'm afraid I've skipped most of what he's written during the years I've been reading EvC so if he's ever mentioned it, I obviously missed it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by mike the wiz, posted 09-25-2004 5:29 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 5:49 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 55 of 84 (145378)
09-28-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Mission for Truth
09-27-2004 12:42 PM


Re: lol
Mission for Truth writes:
Ummmmmm. I think we're talking about the wrong test here, lol. I was asking about #12 on the "Ultimate IQ Test".
I thought that seemed like an odd question for you to get stumped on; it was very easy, so I had a feeling we were getting our wires crossed somehow. But I didn't want to just say, "Dude, u so dumb!"
Suffice it to say, I got the 162 on the test that Mike posted, not the "Ultimate IQ Test" which I'm afraid I still haven't taken. Don't worry, though; I can quite confidently say that I won't get anything approaching 162 on that test. If I do, I think I will take that as conclusive evidence that these tests are completely inaccurate.
Mission for Truth writes:
It has two pentagrams, one big one and one inside that one. The sequence they give you is: J I H G K F A and you have to figure out the next letter.
Hmm...it's a bit tough without actually seeing it. Don't worry, when I do it I'll let you know what I think. I can't make any promises, mind you; if it stumped you, I wouldn't count on me doing any better. I'll give it a shot, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Mission for Truth, posted 09-27-2004 12:42 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by IrishRockhound, posted 09-28-2004 2:46 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 57 of 84 (145397)
09-28-2004 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by IrishRockhound
09-28-2004 2:46 PM


Re: Intelligence
Hi IrishRockhound.
Yes, I understand what you're saying. I've heard similar stories and I think it's a shame that some parents do this. In fact, this reminds me of something that I might post here some time when I get the chance.
As for the topic of dimensions, no, I am not referring to the visualization of three dimensions; I have no problem with that.
If you are interested in this subject, please feel free to check out my thread. This will explain my questions in more detail.
It didn't really thrive the way I thought it would. I find this subject fascinating and when I first started the topic, I assumed that others would, too. But I'm afraid it died a rather quick death. So if you have anything to add, I'd love to hear from you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by IrishRockhound, posted 09-28-2004 2:46 PM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 62 of 84 (151744)
10-21-2004 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by mike the wiz
10-18-2004 5:49 PM


Re: lol
Mike writes:
I have taken a few things that you said from another topic - as I enjoy our exchanges...
As do I.
But you know, to this day it still surprises me how people appear to...how can I put this?...well...enjoy their exchanges with me.
*Danger, Will Robinson! Danger! Vanity meter off the scale!*
Ok, I am really reluctant to explain this because it's going to sound incredibly conceited, but I'm going somewhere with it, so stay with me. Here goes...
I get along with pretty much everybody, with very little effort. At least, I do these days. School, however, was a very different story for me. Frankly, it was disastrous. By the time I finished, I honestly believed that it was normal to be treated like scum. It left me with essentially no self-esteem, and the unconscious expectation of more of the same, "beyond the school grounds," when I left.
Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised to find that people in the "real world" didn't continue where my schoolyard chums had left off. Sure the "real world" has more than its share of jerks, too, but I've come across nowhere near the frequency or severity of the living nightmare I had to endure every day of my life, throughout school.
Push forward a few more years and I got internet access. When I started meeting people online, I noticed an even stranger phenomenon; not only were people not treating me like pond slime, they were actually being nice to me! And the thing that really dazzled me was when people started telling me how nice I was (ugh...here comes that vanity). It's happened so many times now that I've long since lost count. It isn't at all uncommon for someone on a forum, message board, or wherever I happen to be, to PM me with, "Hey, you're really cool, do you have email? I'd love to be pen-pals."
Ack! I hope this isn't coming off as a total ego stroke. That truly isn't my intention. You have to understand that for someone who didn't have any good friends in school (but plenty of enemies), it's an extremely weird experience to suddenly find oneself being treated so well, by so many. Don't get me wrong, it's not like my parents never told me they thought I was great, but your parents have to say that, right? To hear it from total strangers, though, is quite a different matter.
Anyway, I prattle. The point, already...
The reason I mentioned this is because you're far from the first person to say that you "enjoy our exchanges" or something similar, and I think that one of the things that contribute to this is the fact that, as I mentioned in my other post, I do try to avoid heated arguments and such.
I honestly can't decide whether or not it's a good thing that such emotional weakness and inability to handle confrontation should be interpreted as "politeness" or "a lovely personality" (I do believe these are qualities that I possess, mind you, but that's beside the point), but it's something I seem to be stuck with. How ironic that an enemy-induced wussiness should end up being a vehicle for making friends.
Still, I suppose if somebody thinks I'm "a nice person" because I avoid saying or doing things that may cause hurt feelings, then who am I to tell them they're wrong?
Wow, that was a bit long...and all off-topic. I really must try to abridge my replies a little. And again, I hope this rant didn't seem like one big ego trip, or a "Waah...I've had such a horrible life!" whine. That sincerely was not how I meant it.
Mike writes:
...so keep your baba good - lest I spank it.
Baba?
Mike writes:
Seriously though Tony - I do think you are a good poster - even if you think you'd make a bad admin...
Heh, you're not the first person to say that to me, either.
I would like to think that I'm a friendly poster, but on a forum intended for debate, I'm not sure if that equates to a good poster, as it severely limits my participation. I suppose it depends on what you think constitutes a "good poster." Still, thank you for the compliment.
One thing I am sure of; I couldn't be an admin. It's a shame, too. At the risk of sounding conceited again, I do believe that I possess the intelligence and reasoning skills to moderate arguments. What I lack is the skin; mine is simply too thin for the job, I'm afraid.
Mike writes:
...but it's not all bad as you beat me in those IQ tests.
Perhaps, but I still doubt the accuracy of those free online tests, especially with some of the scores I've achieved. Which reminds me, I still haven't done the "Ultimate IQ Test" that Mission for Truth posted.
Mike writes:
Well - that's a good trait in my view - rather than being some big dumb angry bull - full of agressive spunk.
That's what most people tell me. Generally, people seem to consider a sensitive nature a good trait, and for the most part, I agree. I just wish it was a little easier to live with.
Mike writes:
Me too - I find they never happen purposefully...
I'd been having lucid dreams for a long time (albeit infrequently) before I actually started researching them. Up until then, they were always "unintentional," of course, but I started practicing some of the techniques I'd read about and after a while I became reasonably good at having them.
Mike writes:
...but I could defy gravity.
That's my favourite lucid "pastime." Flying is the most liberating feeling...I just wish I could do it for real.
Mike writes:
It's good when you are dreaming and then "realize" you are dreaming - but unfortunately - becoming conscious like this makes me wake up pretty soon afterward.
Yes, that's a very common complaint. As I understand it, when you become lucid your body tends to react by sending your adrenalin through the roof. Obviously, when that happens, you wake up.
It takes a bit of practice but you can learn to control it. The trick is to remain calm...easier said than done considering the sense of exhilaration that usually accompanies lucidity. If that doesn't work for you, there is the "spinning" technique. As I recall, the idea is that if you feel the dream starting to slip away, start spinning (in your dream) in the same fashion as a child getting dizzy. Supposedly, this helps you regain control.
Sorry for being so vague but I haven't read up on this for a long time and I don't remember the details. I have no idea how the spinning technique works, but as I understand it, the figures suggest that those who use it are significantly more likely to recover a fading dream than those who don't.
It's actually quite amazing just how much control you can achieve with practice. When I was right in the "prime" of my lucid dreaming, I really surprised myself a number of times.
One example: I was up amongst the clouds performing my favourite activity. However, my posture (my actual, physical posture, in my bed) was somewhat crooked, and as a result my flying felt a bit off. So I allowed the dream to slip away, opened my eyes, rolled over into a more comfortable position, then closed my eyes and slipped straight back into the dream. Admittedly, I don't know if this is actually an unusual occurrence or not (it could be very common, for all I know), but in retrospect, I was quite surprised that I was able to do it.
Mike writes:
Honestly - I enjoyed reading your dimensions thread but haven't much to add...
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it. If you do wish to add (or ask) anything, it will be there.
I can't deny, though, that the lack of interest really did surprise me. There are no words to describe how much the subject fascinates me, and I was hoping that by having a generic dialogue on it, I would come to understand it better. Perhaps that was part of the problem; the thread may simply have been too vague.
Mike writes:
...despite a whipping and spanking from you - forcing me into it nearly. Only kiddin'
Well, I'm sure it was funny, but I'm afraid you lost me. "A whipping and spanking"? "Forcing you into it nearly"? Sorry, I must be having one of my many "slow days."
Mike writes:
Did you see my baba avatar?
Hmm...there's that word again. Are you talking about the burning bush avatar under your username?
Mike writes:
I painted it - I am a keen painter. I've done about 40 landscapes.
Yes, so you've said. Well, good for you! The only landscapes I've done have been with 3D programs like Bryce and Terragen. I've always admired those who can create such things with their own two hands.
Mike writes:
I might submitt them to show you if it is on-topic. No - only kidding - I won't bore you with it.
Bore me? On the contrary, I like seeing other people's work. Perhaps we could start an art thread and I could post my own, too. That way, everyone could see the breathtaking skills I have...NOT!
Mike writes:
By the way - did you render that cofee and saucer?
You mean the one in this post? No, that's an image that RAZD found on a Google image search. I agree, though; it is very well done. Speaking of which, I believe that RAZD also does 3D work (modelling, as I recall), so there's someone else for our "EvC Artists" thread.
Mike writes:
Have to go now - I'm out of rant gas.
Funny...that never happens to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 5:49 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by mike the wiz, posted 10-24-2004 2:12 PM Tony650 has replied
 Message 74 by Mission for Truth, posted 11-17-2004 1:48 PM Tony650 has not replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 64 of 84 (153092)
10-26-2004 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by mike the wiz
10-24-2004 2:12 PM


Re: lol
Mike writes:
Forgive my late replies.
No problem. I do the same, myself.
Mike writes:
...it was disturbing and shocking and never ceases to amaze me, at how wicked people can be, and children aswell.
Children most of all, ironically. At least, in my experience. Mind you, I have also known a few adults who appear to have never outgrown their childish joy of hurting others for no good reason.
Mike writes:
I am so sorry you endured a nightmare Tony...
Thank you, Mike. That means a lot, really. I wish the nightmare had ended when I left the mental and physical abuse of school behind, but I'm afraid it just ceased to be an external nightmare and became an internal one which, in some areas, has turned out to be much, much worse. Long (off-topic) story.
Mike writes:
Incompetence by default - is how I find the teacher to be.
It's funny you should say that. I just finished telling a friend exactly that about the teachers I had. Not all of them, admittedly. I can think of a small handful that were quite good at what they did.
My year eight homeroom teacher was one; I had him for a number of subjects (four, if memory serves) in my first year of high school and I always think of him with fond memories. He wasn't merely good at the subjects he taught either...he was also someone I always felt I could have gone to if I ever had a problem, whether it be school work, personal, or whatever. I've had very, very few teachers that I thought so highly of. In retrospect, I wish I'd told him that.
But as I said to my friend, this breed of teacher was a rarity where I went. I would say that most were very "ordinary." But if you really want to go to the other end of the scale (the far end), there was one in particular who honestly makes me think, to this day, that you didn't actually need any qualifications to be a teacher at my school.
I had him for multiple subjects and I don't know if he actually had a field of specialty but every subject he "taught" me was just a joke. I recall knowing more than him about music theory in year eight, for example. Ok in fairness, I got top marks, but honestly, he didn't have a clue. I used to think, "Why is this guy teaching music? Do they really not have anyone better?"
The real shining example, though, is when I had him for year 11 biology. That class was a glorified day-care service. And frankly, it didn't even make a good day-care service. Here is how he conducted his biology lessons (and this is not just a typical example, it was the norm...I'm not joking).
Mr. X (I have a heart, so I won't use his real name) walks into the classroom holding the biology textbook in one hand and his novel in the other. He goes to his desk at the front of the room and opens the textbook.
Mr. X: "Ok, read pages 996 to 1027, do the achievement test at the end of that chapter, then start on unit four, do the anatomy quiz, and answer the questions on page 1038."
Mr. X closes the textbook, sits down, and starts reading his novel.
Time passes.
A student raises his hand.
Mr. X continues reading.
The student waits.
Mr. X continues reading.
Student: "Um, excuse me, Sir?"
Mr. X: "Put your hand down."
Student puts his hand down.
Time passes.
The student picks up his textbook and walks to the teacher's desk, at the front of the classroom.
Student: "Excuse me, Sir, I don't understand..."
Mr. X raises his arm in a "talk to the hand" gesture.
Student: "Uh, I don't know what this means, Sir."
Mr. X: "I don't want to see you."
Student: "Well...you see...this says..."
Mr. X: "Nope, not interested."
Student: "But I don't..."
Mr. X: "No, I don't want to talk to you. Now, sit down."
Student returns to his seat.
Now, you may be tempted to think that I've exaggerated a little or embellished the facts to make him sound worse than he actually was, but I swear on my life, this is EXACTLY what this guy's classes were like! I really don't know how he was allowed to work there for so many years. All things considered, I would have to say that he is probably the most incompetent teacher I've ever come across...and believe me, I've come across some pretty bad ones.
And I know it wasn't just our class either...I knew someone a year ahead of me who had also had him for biology, the year after which, he got a different teacher and was stunned that she actually taught the class. I once heard him say (and he was completely serious), "I can't believe how much she helps us...I thought biology was just a subject you had to teach yourself."
Mike writes:
...I suppose that's no big deal if you are an unbeliever - but have it so that I may pray anyway, and don't be offended that I pray for you! (And - no - you didn't sound conceited)
Glad to hear it; when I talk about these things I can be a little paranoid that I'll be taken the wrong way.
And no, I'm not offended by your prayers. I understand the spirit they're offered in and I appreciate the compassion.
Mike writes:
I think - hopefully, that most people are this way.
For some reason, I seem to have (and always have had) a sense that, at their core, people are good. Now, obviously there are exceptions. I've come across a select few people in my life that, as far as I can tell, are completely unreachable. However, I think (and hope) that most people would prefer to be a source of good.
Mike writes:
I also didn't have many companions in school - I feared an enemy who was three times my size - and spat upon us.
Ah, memories. It's all coming back to me.
Mike writes:
But I found that when I befriended him - his morals concerning me were changed.
Man, I wish I could have done that. But I'm afraid the guys that harassed me were far too malicious for that to be an option. The first day back at school, one year, we were settling in our new homeroom and one of the guys who had given me a really hard time for the entirety of the previous year picked the desk right in front of mine. He turned around with that conniving smirk of his and said, and I quote, "So, back for another year of it, eh, Tony?"
Mike writes:
I think that it is meekness or humility - which are validly humble traits which are good.
Well, perhaps so. I can't help but wonder, though, if I would still be as "meek" and "humble" today if I hadn't had the confidence literally beaten out of me at school.
Mike writes:
But you shouldn't look upon this as weakness...
Perhaps "weakness" is too strong a word. In all honesty, I do believe that I've always possessed these qualities anyway...I just don't think that my experiences at school helped matters very much.
Mike writes:
...I often find that a bully with a big mouth, is neither a bully - nor a big mouth on his own.
Indeed. Don't you love the way bullies so frequently display their bravery by getting around in groups and picking on people half their size?
Mike writes:
No - I enjoy reading a rant written for me.
Heh, you should enjoy this post then.
Mike writes:
"Baba" is slang for "baby" in Liverpool - which is where I am from.
Ah, I see. I knew you lived in England but it never occurred to me that "baba" may be a local term. Don't know why I didn't think of that.
My pronunciation may have been throwing me off getting the meaning, too. I've been saying, "bah-buh" (rhymes with "lava"...when said in an Aussie accent ). Is this correct or is the first syllable also a short "uh" sound? That is, "buh-buh" (like saying the first syllable of "bubble" twice in rapid succession)? Perhaps it's something else altogether?
Anyway, no biggie. I'm just curious.
Mike writes:
As ever - your logic is correct, and so - it seems that this might make you a good poster - aswell as a friendly one.
Heh, thanks. Based on "my logic"? Ok then...step aside, Rrhain, the new king is here! *cough* Sorry, I have these delusions of grandeur from time to time.
Mike writes:
Tony, really now - u must know that mike is a nut by now.
Well, yeah...but we wouldn't have you any other way. I mean, anyone who refers to themself in the third-person...heh, just kidding.
Mike writes:
Okay - thanks for the read concerning lucid dreams - it was intereseting...
You're quite welcome. Glad you enjoyed it.
Mike writes:
...and I think that is quite rare for you to have that ability to go back to your dream like that!
Perhaps. I don't really know. I haven't read enough about what other people have and haven't been able to do.
I found, though, that if I was awake for too long I couldn't do it. That's to be expected, I suppose. It makes sense that the briefer the period you're awake for, the easier it will be to return to the dream.
In the example I gave, I didn't wake up for long...I just opened my eyes, rolled over to get comfortable, and closed my eyes again. I can't say for sure how long it took but it felt like my return to the dream was very fast...almost immediately after shutting my eyes. I would guess that I was really only awake for a few seconds (perhaps five or less).
Mike writes:
Here's my baba painting of me aged one...
Aw...little Mikey! So cute!
So this is the one you were referring to? Well, very nice work!
Mike writes:
...and I have to go now, I'm out of typing gas.
No problem. Understandable when it's me you're replying to.
Mike writes:
Dictionary writes; Baba - " A leavened rum cake, usually made with raisins."
Lol.
Ha! Lucky I didn't look it up; I would have been even more confused than I was initially.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by mike the wiz, posted 10-24-2004 2:12 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2004 1:16 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4062 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 66 of 84 (154514)
10-30-2004 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by mike the wiz
10-28-2004 1:16 PM


Re: lol
Mike writes:
I'm so displeased to hear this - I can only hope that those internal turmoils have now ceased - and that your peace may be as a river.....
Ah, if only I could say they have. They have, however, only grown worse in recent days, I'm afraid. And the really infuriating thing is that I think I had finally begun to come to some kind of peace within myself. I felt like I'd actually started truly living again.
Then last year, everything fell to pieces, once more. In fact, 2003 was probably the most painful year I've ever endured. It all started going wrong very early and continued throughout, like a chain-reaction of disastrous events. It really took its toll on me, and to this day, I still haven't recovered. To be completely honest, for a solid eighteen months now, I really haven't been the same.
Mike writes:
Ha. This teacher story was funny - it's coincidendental - that I had a biology teacher - though it was a "she". And in her lessons - we opened a biology book - and copied it untill the lesson ended. Lol.
Sounds about as educational as "Mr. X's" classes were. Honestly, I really don't know what that guy's story was. I don't think anybody did. He certainly had some very odd characteristics.
We used to refer to him as Mr. Colour-Co-ordinated. He would come to school, one day, dressed in a $400 businessman's suit, including jacket and tie complete with "diamond" stick-pin, a gold-plated Rolex, a mobile phone (which wasn't as common back then), clean shaven, hair slicked back, polished black shoes, and a briefcase.
Then the next day, he would swagger in (with a "cool-walk") wearing a Hawaiian singlet-shirt, chest-hair sticking out everywhere, shorts, thongs, sunnies, walkman in his pocket, headphones hanging around his neck, five o'clock shadow, and spiked hair.
I swear I'm not making this up.
Maybe if it's something we'd seen once or twice we could have just shrugged it off, but he did this regularly. He would waver between one extreme and the other on an almost daily basis. He'd look like a company executive one day, and a teenager with a rapid aging disorder the next; revelling in his "seniority" one day, and trying to be "one of us" the next. Perhaps it was just one long, indecisive mid-life crisis?
Don't get me wrong, his life is his life and if he wants to alternate his wardrobe that much I wish him all the best. I never had any problem with him doing it, I just couldn't for the life of me understand why he did it.
Who knows...perhaps he did it purely for the attention. If that's what he wanted then he certainly succeeded. From what I could tell, the other students mostly found it amusing to wait for his arrival in the mornings so they could "...see what he's wearing today," but as far as I know, nobody ever did figure out "...what is up with him?" Perhaps that was his very intention.
Mike writes:
...concerning those wicked ones who had evil come upon you - my only hope for them is that their sin wasn't so great...
In fairness to them, I can't say they ever pulled a gun on me, or anything like that. I realize there are far worse things happening in schools these days and I'm glad to be away from it. In any case, I'm certainly not ungrateful that I never had to face anything truly life-threatening. Though, I was once pushed out on the main road in front of traffic, that's about as directly dangerous as it ever got.
Still, I don't think any of the people that harassed me ever actually wanted to kill me...where's the fun in that? Oh no, they wanted me to live; the longer I lived, the longer they could make me suffer.
In a way, I was lucky; I didn't have to face some of the life-threatening scenarios that kids today do. Unfortunately, I'm cursed with a sensitivity that makes every minor setback feel like a world-shattering calamity. So I'm sure you can imagine what year after year, day after day, class after class of being a plaything at the hands of those who just loved to see me suffer did for my self-esteem.
Mike writes:
But then - I must ask "Am I so good"? Maybe we don't realize our badness - and assume we are basically good.
True. It depends what you mean by "good" I suppose. I do believe I'm a "good" person (whatever that is). I believe I am far more considerate of other people's feelings than most, if that counts for anything. I've actually been known to lose sleep on account of thinking I'd hurt someone's feelings, only to later find out that I hadn't...on more than one occasion I might add (yes, I really am that bad). A friend once told me that I'm the most sensitive male in the world. He meant it as a compliment.
Mike writes:
All I can hope for now - is that his plans didn't come to pass - and you were spared from the hands of that wicked persons! Ofcourse - no hoping will effect what has previously happened, but yet I hope.
Actually, it was indeed another gruelling year, I'm afraid. What really irks me is people who not only get off on making others miserable, but act so proud of the fact that they do it. This one guy in particular used to taunt me with it. He'd say, "You know, Tony, they say that if you stand up to bullies they'll leave you alone. Why don't you try and stand up to me, huh?" Well, it might have something to do with the fact that you're a foot taller than me and outweigh me by 30 kilos. He damn-well knew there was no way I was going to stand up to him.
I'd love to have the chance again, though; he'd get quite a shock now. Oh I'm sure he'd still be bigger than me (in fact, there can be no doubt, as I'm nowhere near as big today as he was back then) but I'm not the same person he knew in school; not to brag (as I seem to keep doing ) but I'm far more...shall we say "capable" than the skinny little kid that he used to slap around.
Mike writes:
I personally think that your good traits render a victory over those wicked people you had to suffer...
Well, thank you. That's one way of looking at it, I guess.
Mike writes:
...and I wonder why you had to suffer this evil - and why it came upon you.
I used to ask myself that question every day. Sometimes I still do. I used to ask my mother what was wrong with me. Naturally, she would say there was nothing wrong with me, but that isn't much of a comfort when there are plenty at school who beg to differ. She told me once that they just picked on me because I was quiet. Hmm...well ok, I was quiet...but still...
Mike writes:
Tony - you've made my day, as I thought I would never have a conversation about how to pronounce baba. Lol, I'm so chuffed.
Well, it makes my day to know that I made your day!
I guess you owe me a favour now, huh? *cough* Just kidding.
Mike writes:
I hope you find the word amusing like I do, lol - as it's connection is cute when matched with babies, and I love the lil cutie babas so I do...Okay - you can lock me up now for being a nut.
Heh, I do indeed. Thanks for the explanation.
Mike writes:
Haha..well - technically I'm as batty as a fruitcake...
Fruitcakes are batty?
Mike writes:
Well, I admitt to not having the same rant power as you, so my post is maybe not as lengthy as yours...
That's ok, few people do. It's an innate gift.
Mike writes:
Ahaha - thanks, there's nothing better than a babas joy I think you'll find.
Indeed. Life was certainly easier then, that's for sure. A line from a movie (Look Who's Talking, perhaps?) springs to mind; "We spend the first nine months trying to get out, and the rest of our lives trying to get back in." Of course, there are several different ways to interpret that.
Mike writes:
Just as long as you don't eat me - thinking me a cake...but then - I admitt my cheeks were cute enough to eat.
Thinking you a cake? Um...did people mistake you for a cake often when you were a baba?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2004 1:16 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by mike the wiz, posted 11-08-2004 8:32 PM Tony650 has replied

  
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