Evolution vs. Thermodynamics

[QUOTE][B]But the organisms you are talking about have cell membranes [/QUOTE][/B]Cell membranes are composed primarily of phospholipids with a hydrophobic head and hydrophilic tail. When mixed with water, they spontaneously form the bilayered membrane because that is the lowest energy configuration. All you need is a mix of phospholipids or molecules with similar properties (hydrophobe and hydrophile ends) in the soup and you end up with membranes forming spontaneously. [QUOTE][B]So you would have to say there were permanent volcanic clouds hanging in the sky to protect earth? What about winds, etc moving them around?[/QUOTE][/B]Because the entire planet is covered with clouds, wind is irrelevant and unable to part them. Take a look at Venus. [QUOTE][B]So what is the alternative model you have for producing organic molecules?[/QUOTE][/B]Anaerobic environments are common on Earth today. Also there is the thermal vent environment of the deep sea. (Where the ocean would block UV even without help from the atmosphere). [QUOTE][B]After all, an average sized protein contains 500 amino acids. Give me a concentration (molarity) of peptides in water that you suggest would have proteins forming.[/QUOTE][/B]Concentration of reagents for this reaction would only alter the rate of reaction. If you had only two AA molecules in an entire ocean, you could still have a "protein forming" when they eventually link up. The question is meaningless the way it is stated. [QUOTE][B]As the planet cooled, wouldn't energy have mostly radiated out into outer space?[/QUOTE][/B]That depends on the thickness of the atmosphere. And even today there is a lot of geothermal energy being released into the environment, namely hot vents and volcanism. Cooling is something that would take more than a billion years and is still occuring today. [QUOTE][B]Tell me how the energy produced by cooling can be used.[/QUOTE][/B]You misread the post. Energy is not produced by cooling.

[QUOTE][B]What is needed is an engine, a converting mechanism, some sort of coupling mechanism that will convert the negative entropy associated with energy flow into negative entropy[/QUOTE][/B]A replicating molecule does the trick. It runs off heat and decreases entropy. [QUOTE][B]Until such an engine is found[/QUOTE][/B]You talk about it as if it were hard to find such a device, yet the air conditioner you've been running so much recently is an example.By the way, you can't preach to an offended audience. You might want to tone your more offensive posts down a bit.[This message has been edited by gene90, 08-07-2002]

[QUOTE][B]BTW, If you copied the stuff in either of your posts from one or more creationist websites you should probably acknowledge them.[/QUOTE][/B]I'm fairly sure he authored that post himself. I'm convinced he is using secondary Creationist sources he failed to acknowledge, but I found no evidence of copy-and-paste.By the way, my favorite example of order-from-disorder: charge seperation in thunderstorms. As a byproduct of afternoon solar heating, electrical charges are moved to a highly improbable, very unstable, high-energy configuration, the ultimate result being lightning--something these Creationist arguments would indicate does not exist.

[QUOTE][B]Now Gene90, why is it Okay with you that your fellow evolutionists can be so offensive?[/QUOTE][/B]I would encourage Randy to behave but as his comments are not directed at me (as an evolutionist) what he types is generally not my concern.[This message has been edited by gene90, 08-07-2002]

[QUOTE][B]Can you provide more details of this replicating molecule that runs off heat and decreases entropy.[/QUOTE][/B]Which would you like? The property of self-replication is common enough to have its own chemical term, autocatalysis.How about these, to start?Source:Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis CalculationsExamples:A synthetic peptide ligase - PubMedAutocatalytic networks: the transition from molecular self-replication to molecular ecosystems - PubMedMost chemical reactions do run off heat, especially synthesis reactions like the one we are talking about. Some reactions are so efficient at running off heat that they are marketed as "cold packs" for athletic injuries. I see no reason to believe that these are that efficient but, yes, this sort of reaction is generally run off heat, or more specifically, the kinetic energy of collisions on the molecular level. [QUOTE][B]If we can make enough of these replicating molecules, can we reverse the entropy of the entire universe?!? ; )[/QUOTE][/B]Most of the energy fed into the system dissipates and is no longer useful, in accordance with 2LOT. Universal entropy increases and so does the complexity of the molecule, and you have to pay for it in energy.[This message has been edited by gene90, 08-07-2002]