What is Christian music?

I with River, I can't see the difference: "Insufficent" implies that something more is needed, hence: "That implies that it would take music, and more to change their mind."

I couldn't agree more. But it is popular non the less. I don't really like them anyway, they are almost good.Unfortunatly thats what good sound systems cost, depending on the size of the church. Our church right now is going to expand and we need to update our sound system, we got 3 bids ranging from $60,000 to I think over $100,000. It perplexs me too, but if you think about how important sound is to a church, and the music, it will repay itself over the years ten fold. Then that money can go to feed the homeless. Or the way my church looks at is, we build leaders who go out into the real kingdom of God, and do the work of the Lord. If all we did with the money was go and feed the homeless, we would have a bunch of homeless people with full bellys. Which byitself isn't bad, but you need to think of the bigger picture, and building an organization that can continue to feed the homeless for years to come. It is also not just the homeless that need God.I will give you a better example. I am not doing this to brag but just to show you how it can work. It was my churches sound system (and worship team), which is a pretty expensive sound system the way it is, just getting a little old, that help me make that final step to commiting myself to God. From that has spawned many good works for the Lord, including music, ministry, and now starting up a charity organization, where we will be going out into the world and helping children at risk. So I am sharing the Lord with people inside the church, outside the church, and outside this nation. Even here on the internet, although some of you might not think so But I have recieved e-mails thanking me for my faith. It is wonderful to be a part of it all.BTW the charity is a non-denominational organization that is run by successful business men, and a Pastor, and will include humanitarians as well as religious people. We want to bridge the gap between beliefs, and help those that need it.
Hope for the Nations
We are setting up Hope USA branch, and have started a few projects already. Anyone here who has a heart to help those in need, you are welcome to get involved, regardless your beliefs.But I don't think it is right that they announced it in a bulletin. I know in my church it is top secret(but public if you go and ask) what it costs, because some wouldn't understand why. I only annouced it here, to help explain it to you. It you felt something was wrong in that church you went to, then there probably was something wrong. It took 10 churches before I found one that I liked, and could call home, were I felt the people represented of how Jesus wanted us to be. I hope it never changes.

Theres something very difficult about being simple.

Have you heard Low's Christmas Album (Its called that, or something like it)? Really great. The covers sounds really different from the usual renditions, but they aren't all covers; I think a couple are their own. However, I heard somewhere that Low are Mormons (I think) so I'm not sure if they count.I'm with Crashfrog all the way on this argument about whether music is "enough" to convert an atheist. Maybe I'm not getting it, but surely if music isn't going to convert you, then music PLUS something that will convert you is a waste of time (why not just use the thing that is going to convert someone, because the music won't).Music is much better at helping the worship of people who are already converted in my experience. The danger is that it can end up sounding rather mawkish to those who don't believe. Not that it isn't sometimes beautiful, and the words can be lovely. But all those "Oooh, Jesus jesus, his body slick with crimson love... he died for me... yeah! and I bask in his RAI-dience...forever!" lyrics are terribly winceworthy. That reminds me actually. I wrote a little song on that very theme once that went:Sailing, sailing, sailing, across the sea to Jesus
Jesus, jesus, jesus, I hope that you'll be there
There, there, there, everything will be lovely
lovely lovely lovely, with jesus jesus yeah
(Repeat ad infinitum)

Right. Something more than music is needed.It doesn't follow that you still need music plus something else.If you two can't parse simple statements in English then there's not much conversing I can probably do with you.

Yes I agree.
But we have to ask ourselves why those who aren't converted feel that the music stinks, or its shallow. We are supposed to be doing our best for God, that should be conveyed to those who don't believe, so they can witness.What if everyone who doesn't believe thinks or reasons that, well if the Jesus freaks can't get it right for God, and the secular world can, how smart can those Jesus freaks really be? How true is their faith?I guess this is why there is praise and worship music, then there is Christian music.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 10-26-2004 09:26 AM

Yes and I agree with you, we just said it a little differently.For music was the last step in my journey, well it was part of it. It was more like where it was coming from. But it was part of it.

And that is very, very true. The clearest, simplest writing is very hard to pull off.

Low is the current pride of my hometown, Duluth, Minnesota (Also the birthplace of Robert Zimmerman aka Bob Dylan). I currently live just northeast (up the Lake Superior shore) from there.Low is considered the "Big Banana" of the "Slowcore" musical movement. Relative to much (most?) of Low's output, the Cowboy Junkies are downright spunky. I like the music of the Junkies; I have a lot of trouble getting into Low. Shockingly enough, I have heard one Low song (off the "Trust" cd) that sound quite a bit like Crazy Horse.I, however, must admire Low's loyality to the hometown. They're still based out of Duluth, and frequently play concerts there.The husband and wife than form 2/3rds of the group are indeed Morman. I don't know about the third member (the drummer).The husband, Alan Sparhawk, is also in another band, the Black Eyed Snakes. The Snakes have two cd's out, of which I have the second. I'll describe it as "grunge blues" (Vaguely along the lines of the John Spencer Blues Explosion, which is the way to go if you're into such). Very much a contrast to Low. I'm not aquainted with the first Snakes cd, but I think it might be a little closer to the blues mainstream.Moose

I realize I am arriving late, but I do have something to say on this subject.I am , by the way, an atheist. Just wanted to get that out of the way.I'm from Appalachia, eastern Kentucky to be exact. Religion is rife here, and so is the music. I love real, old time gospel music and find it fascinating. The Old Regular Baptists (the most conservative of many conservative sects in the area) still do the old chant hymns, where the preacher says a line or two of the hymn and the congregation sings it back. It was a style developed when many congregants couldn't read and the churches couldn't afford hymnals anyway. To hear it done earnestly is something I can't describe.Then there are the gospel bluegrass groups. There's nothing like a banjo, mandolin, and a guitar backing up a high lonesome tenor. I know it's old fashioned and may be considered hick music by many, but those people haven't given it a chance.Why is such music so great? The passion. These performers are puring their very souls into this music, because they believe so deeply and strongly in it, and that's how real art gets made.Note: By "high lonesome" I am refferring to a specific style of singing popularized and typified by Ralph Stanley. I was not waxing poetic.This message has been edited by mikehager, 10-26-2004 11:57 AM

Why should it be kept a dirty little secret if its results are so grand? I understood the theory behind spending so much before you explained it to me - I just don't believe it to hold water, or be ethical. If this is actually what you meant, I think that is kind of sad. You wouldn't have committed to God without an expensive sound system? That is pretty pathetic, in my opinion. (Considering in another thread you've cited monetary wealth of countries as proof of Christianity's power, I'm beginning to think you associate spirituality and money, which I have serious problems with).Riverrat, how long have been such sound systems been around? How long has Christianity been around? If you think about it for a moment, you'll see that your statement that you need such things to create a long-lasting organization is flawed.Good works are more important than up-to-date sound. Perhaps more people would understand the power of God if they saw a collection of good works by His people, rather than a multi-million dollar church with a kickin' subwoofer.Such constructions are nothing but ego-stroking for the congregation, and people who "find God" as a result of such artifice should reexamine their spirituality.This trend is one step away from building Disney World to convert people.

Awesome!I recently was listening to some blue grass gospel. It sounded so cool. I love the way they sing without an vibrato. Their voices sound like instruments, and the harmonies rock!Sometimes we re-arrange songs, and a couple of them we wound up doing country, what a blast! Just 2 weeks ago we re-arranged a song, and it sounds like an Alman brothers song, I love the piano in that style music (Southern Rock) especially since thats what I play.Somewhere near the end of the thread, I want to post some of my playing, for you guys to kick around with

You should have finished my quote instead of taking a statement out of context, the answer was there, or what I thought was the answer. Again you are taking things out of context.
If you think any one of these things byitself can cinvert me or anyone else, then you really haven't been listening. In todays world in just might be needed, thats why its there. Most things that the church uses is a result of past experiences and results, and it relates directly to the work of the Lord. You just don't see how it works. Look deeper then. Don't just walk into a church and see a $200,000 sound system, and say to yourself, this BS, I'm out of here, God doesn't exist!!!Grrrr....blah blah. Christians are full of it, I'm mad at the world! (ok I exagreated a little, I like to have fun too you know)
Why don't you set up a meeting with the Pastor and ask to see the accounting records. Most churches have a policy in place that aliows you to do just that. Ask him why he spent $200,000 on a sound system. If you don't get any good answers, then your probably right, and I would high tail it out of there. But I wouldn't give up on God just because one group of people doesn't have it right. Or would I go into an internet forum, and start yelling at every Christian I come across.Matthew 2316"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'It doesn't say to not make an altar though. We are supposed to make great altars to worship him. But this is only a small investment as compared to what we should be giving to him, and his people. Good works of the Lord to rest in feeding the poor alone. It is much more than that.But maybe this is what you saw:Daniel 3:7
Therefore, as soon as they heard the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp and all kinds of music, all the peoples, nations and men of every language fell down and worshiped the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.You know the difference, its in your heart, that is clear to me.
I suspect you are not like this:James 2Favoritism Forbidden1My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet,"You would show the poor man just as much respect as the rich man, that is what I love about you.I think your mind set comes from scriptures like this:Acts 17
23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:|sc TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.And this is true, but doesn't mean that we can't worship him in a big way.I don't know what else to say, but I will speak from my heart. I believe you feel this way because God has put his laws on our hearts and minds, and I totally understand were your coming from. Most of the NT is about making the temples less important, and the outside world more important. I agree with the this. Our Pastor also teaches us that we should have a sign above the door, saying "Now entering the Kingdom of God", but the sign should on the way out. I love the church I go to, its where we meet and worship together, God loves to see his people worship together in a mighty way, but if thats all they are doing, then fall short of the glory. When we meet it is mostly to talk about what we are going to do out in the world. You see our church builds leaders that will go out there and feed the poor. So whats better, to feed a man a meal, or teach him how to grow his own food and cook it? The great news is that you seem to know the difference, you just need God in your life to complete the picture, and you don't need a church for that, and you don't need a church to do his works, but it would be nice if there was one that you could go and pool together resources with others to do his works. A place where you felt God, because of the people, not the $200,000 sound system. If this world pulled together, we could all have $200,000 sound systems....Imagine...

I don't think is an exaggeration to state that an expensive sound system was involved in your commitment, unless you miswrote...Also, I've never argued that one materialistic church taints all of Christianity and denies the existance of God - that is a strawman you made. Because his giant bejeweled gold watch and pinky ring were hurting my eyes (not sarcasm); and he appeared to be more demon than servant of God. A nice lesson, but I would say put it into practice. Abandon the expensive temple, since it removes you from the Kingdom of God. That's the secondary message of the lesson, to me - that a temple of materialism and artifice is a separation from the Kingdom of God. I guess you don't realize how offensive (or at least materialistic) that sounds.I thank you for the kind words and the effort you put into finding the very appropriate scripture - However, I would argue from that the six-figure-sound-system is no different from the golden calf.

You ever been to a concert?