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Author | Topic: Creationist Baumgardner: one of the top mainstream mantle/plate tectonics simulators! | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: He is a mantle modeler. He is out of the closet and professes young earth creationism at meetings such as AGU whilst hypocritically sponsoring old earth posters in another room. Baumgardner's model is good, but it is not the best there is. As with all computer models, they will give answers, but GIGO. Baumgardner's model can be tweaked to show there is no possibility for plate tectonics as well. The key is to match observations with the models. His Noachian model is not supported by any observational data.In fact, the observations are unambiguously opposed to his model. By the way TB, Baumgardner, while a hypocrite, publicly announces his christianity and ye-stance unlike many other closet hypocrites who pretend to be something else for a buck or two. Cheers Joe Meert [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 08-05-2002]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Actually, his publication record is rather meagre for someone with 20+ years of experience in the field. He has one first author book and 8 co-authored papers. Having said that, let's give credit where credit is due. He developed the Terra model and it is a useful (though not the best) code for mantle dynamics. He is most definitely a geophysicist though he is NOT a geologist. He has good knowledge of mantle dynamics and kinematics. He also knows quite well that computer models such as his will give answers dependent on the input. One can make the mantle do just about anything if one plays with the parameters. So this complex computer algorithm results in rapid drift. One only has to assume unrealistic models for mantle viscosity to get this result, but the result has some very simple consequences. One of them is the amount of heat released during this 'collapse' and the second is the depth profile of the oceanic crust. I've dealt with the first one at THE DEPTHS OF THE OCEANS . Others have discussed the heat problem. The simple answer is that garbage into Terra results in a global flood (garbage out).
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
I should add that Baumgardner has a number of abstracts published as well, but these are not considered as peer-reviewed. Note that with his publication record, it is unlikely that Baumgardner would have received tenure at most major universities in the US.
Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: I did not trot him out as 'one of the top'. He is a good code writer. Most of the ideas for publications are not his, he is co-author. I think his idea actually is one paper and the book. If you are going to trot someone out as 'top mainstream', it's best to back it up. Cheers Joe Meert [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 08-08-2002]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: You're now changing the meaning of your title. Creating a program is the first step in mantle dynamic simulation. Your title implied he actually does something with it. The literature says no, he relies on co-authors for the few pubs he has. There are a number of great packages out there. Mike Gurnis at CalTech is by far a superior mantle modeler. David Yuen at Minnesota is much better known than Baumgardner. You clearly set out to tout the credentials of Baumgardner to lend credence to his model. You failed and made a critical mistake in arguing from authority by failing to check the credentials of your authority. A double faux pas. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Yes. I do disagree with the statement. Cheers Joe Meert [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 08-18-2002] [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 08-18-2002]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: That is not the queston you asked earlier. As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, his computer model (after correcting some early errors) is ok. It's not the best, nor the worst. However, the people at Microsoft make a decent word processor, but I doubt if you'll find a Hemingway amongst the computer geeks who wrote the code. Cheers Joe Meert [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 08-19-2002]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Mainstream geology reached this conclusion years ago without having to boil away the oceans, kill every living thing and have oceans only a few meters deep. Furthermore, there do exist slivers of oceanic crust older than the most fossiliferous strata. These are called ophiolites and are found around the world where oceanic crust was obducted. Baumgardner does not mention these slivers of old oceanic crust does he?
quote: JM: They are completely unrealistic. Sorry. Cheers Joe Meert [Added missing close quote. --Admin] [This message has been edited by Admin, 08-19-2002]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM:The asthenosphere is ~1021 Pa*s and the lower mantle probably on the order of 1022 Pa*s so Baumgardner's values are a bit more than absurd. Are the other values correct? Thermal conductivity of 2 x 10^10 W/m K?????? There must be an error. For example, the thermal conductivity of most earthen materials range somewhere between 1-4 W/m K. So there's an overestimate even worse than the mantle. Heat production in the crust (where most of the radioactive material resides) is variable, but generally units of 1-10 micro-watts per m^3 are used so his values here are overestimates by 10^6-10^7 compared to the earth. Are those numbers correct? I somehow never noticed those. If the model was absurd before, it now borders on the ridiculous. Cheers Joe Meert [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 08-19-2002]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM:Can you show me an artificial or real material with the following property? Thermal conductivity of 2 x 10^10 W/m K Thanks This is one of the parameters in the 'runaway subduction' model. CheersJoe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
COMPUTER MODELING OF THE LARGE-SCALE TECTONICS ASSOCIATED WITH THE GENESIS FLOOD | The Institute for Creation Research
You need to read the two articles carefully. The absurd value is used to get runaway subduction. So how about it, blitz? Can you show me a natural or artificial material with that high of a thermal conductivity? The article you refer to has time scales much too long for ye-creationism. Secondly, Baumgardner states there is no pre-fossil oceanic crust. This is false and ignores the volumes of material formed in ophiolites. Most old ocean floor is subducted but we have remanents of the older oceans. Baumgardner shows his naivete with regard to things geological. Cheers Joe Meert [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 08-20-2002]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Don't forget the misuse of parameters and the fact that the ocean floor is now deeper than 15 meters predicted by Baumgardner. The model committed suicide, there is no need for us to kill it. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
[B]Yes this is all very constraining. By maybe, in the wash, it all just works out and the ark really was there to protect those on baord from a truly bizarre event. And maybe we now know the real reason for the marine extinctions. Only small pockets of life survived to repopulate. So I'll believe that. I'll beleive that the Bible is not kidding in talking about a recent global flood. You can believe that life evolved from slime. It's faith for both of us.
[/QUOTE] JM: In the end, if the science is unsalvageable, take a leap of faith. The ultimate cop-out. Furthermore, you can toss in a non-sequiter to go along with it. The existence/non-existence of a global flood has nothing to do with whether or not one agrees with evolution nor does evolution say life evolved from slime. Sometimes, your statements make me wonder if you are making up your credentials. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: YOu're correct because you've yet to say anything valid. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: What does any of this side show have to do with the topic at hand? Have you also learned the Gish gallop as part of your creationist internship? Cheers Joe Meert
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