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Author Topic:   Why can creationists give straight answers?
Randy
Member (Idle past 6276 days)
Posts: 420
From: Cincinnati OH USA
Joined: 07-19-2002


Message 28 of 56 (15814)
08-21-2002 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by gene90
08-20-2002 11:36 PM


I should point out that while leprosy (from Mycobacterium leprae) is an infectious disease it is in fact very difficult to contract. It requires long and intimate contact with infected people and even then not all contract it. I have asked some dermatologists who have experience with this disease and they agree that it would not be possible to contract it from walls.
If you are going to put forward some supposed Biblical knowledge of leprosy one might also point out that the Biblically prescribed treatment is totally worthless.
BTW which of Noah's children or daughters-in-law do YECs think was the leper? I don't see how else the disease could have survived the worldwide flood. Armadillos are the only animal carrier and they die pretty quickly when they get it so I don't think they could have gotten from the middle east to Texas if infected.
Randy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by gene90, posted 08-20-2002 11:36 PM gene90 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by mark24, posted 08-21-2002 10:29 AM Randy has not replied
 Message 34 by Fred Williams, posted 08-21-2002 7:57 PM Randy has replied

  
Randy
Member (Idle past 6276 days)
Posts: 420
From: Cincinnati OH USA
Joined: 07-19-2002


Message 36 of 56 (15878)
08-21-2002 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Fred Williams
08-21-2002 7:57 PM


quote:
Hello Randy! There are two things that drag you out of the woodwork, 2LOT and Noah’s ark. You must have only two books on your shelf: 2LOT for Dummies, and Noah’s ark for Dummies.
Well here’s Fred again with his fairy tales. I do have Noah’s ark for dummies all right but Woodmorappe gave it a slightly different title, something about a feasibility study. I also have Sarfati’ book, Creationism for the Complete Idiot but he also gave it a slightly different title (Refuting Evolution).
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I should point out that while leprosy (from Mycobacterium leprae) is an infectious disease it is in fact very difficult to contract. It requires long and intimate contact with infected people and even then not all contract it. I have asked some dermatologists who have experience with this disease and they agree that it would not be possible to contract it from walls.
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Impossible? If the bacteria can live for 3 weeks or more, it is certainly possible. Unlikely? Perhaps. Question: If you were forced to live with a leper, would you regularly wash yourself, your clothes, and anything in your room you think he might have rubbed up against? Case closed.
What I said was told to me by dermatologists including one who has practiced in Africa and has direct experience dealing with and treating leprosy. You can’t contract it from walls period. Below is what the Meck Manual says about it.
Leprosy - Infections - Merck Manuals Consumer Version
Isolation, however, is unnecessary. Leprosy is contagious only in the untreated lepromatous form, and even then it isn't easily transmitted to others. Furthermore, most people are naturally immune to leprosy, and only those in a household with an infected person for an extended time are at risk of developing an infection. Doctors and nurses who treat people with leprosy do not appear to be at increased risk.
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If you are going to put forward some supposed Biblical knowledge of leprosy one might also point out that the Biblically prescribed treatment is totally worthless.
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It is? You must have missed the part where Hyssop oil has been shown to contain 50% antifungal and antibacterial agents.
The first available treatment for leprosy was dapsone and it only controlled the disease not cured it. With modern multiple antibiotic therapy the disease can now be cured. Hyssop is totally worthless for treating leprosy and I don’t think bird’s blood would help much either, even if it was blessed by a priest.
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BTW which of Noah's children or daughters-in-law do YECs think was the leper? I don't see how else the disease could have survived the worldwide flood.
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Who said the disease existed before the flood? Surely you are aware the vast majority of bacteria are beneficial ecological agents? You are also surely aware that mutation occurs? I submit that the Mycobacterium leprae bacillus is a bacteria that was once a useful ecological agent before the flood, and mutated after the flood into its nasty form we see today
I believe the post-flood environment resulted in an increase in harmful mutations. There is both Biblical and scientific evidence for this, but I obviously cannot be dogmatic on it. It is entirely reasonable and possible that a post-flood world would see a rapid increase in mutated bacteria, including undesirables such as Mycobacterium leprae.
You can believe this absurd fantasy all you want. Just don’t call it science.
Randy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Fred Williams, posted 08-21-2002 7:57 PM Fred Williams has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by derwood, posted 08-22-2002 12:04 PM Randy has not replied

  
Randy
Member (Idle past 6276 days)
Posts: 420
From: Cincinnati OH USA
Joined: 07-19-2002


Message 37 of 56 (15880)
08-21-2002 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Fred Williams
08-21-2002 7:15 PM


quote:
Do you have a specific Bible verse where the use of leprosy appears to cover a different disease? My search yielded 28 hits of the word leprosy, and a quick check of each context appeared to support the modern version, though I’m no leprosy expert. I looked up the Hebrew word used, and it is defined in Strong’s Hebrew dictionary as leprosy. That’s it. Normally this dictionary is very reliable, so I would have expected to find additional definitions, such as or pertaining to skin disease if what you claim is valid.
Well one thing is sure. If the disease they are describing was successfully treated with hyssop it was not leprosy.
Randy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Fred Williams, posted 08-21-2002 7:15 PM Fred Williams has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by derwood, posted 08-22-2002 12:00 PM Randy has replied

  
Randy
Member (Idle past 6276 days)
Posts: 420
From: Cincinnati OH USA
Joined: 07-19-2002


Message 43 of 56 (15933)
08-22-2002 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by derwood
08-22-2002 12:00 PM


Quote from SLPx
quote:
I see nothing about "antifungal" (which wouldn't have anything to do with leprosey) or "antimicrobial".
Actually, some of the terpenes particularly germacrene-D and its relatives, have some antibacterial and antifungal efficacy. Interestingly, these compounds while completely worthless for treating leprosy may have some effect on diseases such as tinea corpus and others which might be easily be confused with leprosy. Perhaps mistaken identity is why hyssop was incorrectly thought to be efficacious for treating leprosy. The varius forms of tinea can be tricky to diagnose without the use of KOH and a microscope and there are several other skin diseases which can be confused with leprosy.
Mycobacterium leprea is a thick walled bacteria that is inside cells well down in the dermis attacking the nerves and effective topical treatment is not possible. I suspect if you tried to take enough hyssop oil to treat it orally you wouldn’t have to worry about the leprosy because you would die from the hyssop and it wouldn't work anyway.
Some fundamentalist websites that tout the antibacterial efficacy of hyssop say it contains 50% Carvacrol (methyl-5-(1-methylethyl)phenol) but I don’t see that at in the analysis you linked.
The main use of hyssop these days is primariliy in new age aroma therapy applications. The terpenes in hyssop are quite volatile and I suppose their medicinal odor has some placebo effects.
Randy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by derwood, posted 08-22-2002 12:00 PM derwood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by derwood, posted 08-22-2002 2:52 PM Randy has replied

  
Randy
Member (Idle past 6276 days)
Posts: 420
From: Cincinnati OH USA
Joined: 07-19-2002


Message 45 of 56 (15946)
08-22-2002 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by derwood
08-22-2002 2:52 PM


I just read the Leviticus 13 and 14. It is clear to me that the diseases being described cannot all be leprosy and I don't think that any of them actually are leprosy. I see symptoms that could be the result of fungal infections, psoriasis or pustular psoriasis, vitiligo, exema, impetigo, boils and maybe diabetic or other ulcers, possibly sebborheic dermatitis, maybe even squamous cell carcinoma, but not leprosy. The skin may lighten in spots early on with leprosy, but the hair does not turn white and eventually the skin will be quite dark in patches in lepromatus leprosy. I have seen pictures of advanced lepromatous leprosy where the hair is still dark and patches of skin are very dark. In this stage the disease may be hard to distinguish from discoid lupus erythematosus without modern diagnostic techniques. There are some other Bible versus that refer to the skin and even hair of lepers being white or white as snow. This is not leprosy as we know it today.
I think that L 14:34-37 describing a plague of leprosy on a house are particularly revealing. While micobacterium leprae may live for three days on the walls of a house for 3 days as Fred says I doubt if it will produce "hollow streaks greenish or reddish". Sounds more like mildew than leprosy.
It is fortunate for them that the skin diseases weren't leprosy as the treatments described and the methods for deciding if a patient was clean or not are totally worthless for leprosy.
Randy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by derwood, posted 08-22-2002 2:52 PM derwood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by derwood, posted 08-22-2002 8:27 PM Randy has not replied

  
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