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Author
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Topic: Why Doesn't God Explain In Person?
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 25 of 86 (161016)
11-18-2004 10:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 24 by Tusko
11-18-2004 5:31 AM
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Here I go again, humor an old man please.
So if your belief, in many instances, chooses you, rather than the other way round, how is that helpful? Would you agree that teaching morality to young kids is a good idea?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Tusko, posted 11-18-2004 5:31 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 26 by Tusko, posted 11-18-2004 11:42 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 27 of 86 (161076)
11-18-2004 12:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by Tusko
11-18-2004 11:42 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Because humans are visual animals, and because your avatar is a big ape Actually, that's just me. It was a bad hair day. Back towards topic. So regardless of which religion someone is born into, isn't it helpful if at least initially there is some moral training? Please understand that I also include any other moral training whether religion based or atheistic.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by Tusko, posted 11-18-2004 11:42 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by Tusko, posted 11-19-2004 4:49 AM | | jar has replied | | | Message 55 by tsig, posted 11-24-2004 5:21 AM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 42 of 86 (161451)
11-19-2004 9:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 40 by Tusko
11-19-2004 4:49 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
For most adults, I think "don't do that because the ten commandments say you can't" (morality from authority?) is a bit shaky. Although the absoluteness of the commands gives clarity, it doesn't offer any guidance when the situation to which they are being applied is complicated. I completely agree. Morality from Authority will always be limited and usually ineffective. So now finally I hope we can tie this slightly OT excursion back into the thread topic. Is it possible that GOD does not explain in person because He realizes that Morality from Authority is not the best basis for adult behaviour?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by Tusko, posted 11-19-2004 4:49 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by Tusko, posted 11-19-2004 11:29 AM | | jar has replied | | | Message 44 by lfen, posted 11-19-2004 11:59 AM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 50 of 86 (161541)
11-19-2004 3:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Tusko
11-19-2004 11:29 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
The Abramic ones are all much of a muchness, but there have been some others that are seriously out of whack on things like human sacrifice. There is no doubt that many religious and cultural practices of ancient people seem wrong, barbaric even, when we look at them from a 21 st. Century perspective. But how do they look when seen through the eyes of the contemporary folk? Remember, religion is something seperate from GOD. If GOD exists, He exists whether anyone belives in Him or not. Religion though is a purely human institution, something society creates. And that religion only has meaning within the context of that society.
2) Doesn't the various holy books just confuse things unneccesarily by LOOKING like they are offering morality from authority? I think many religions confuse things, usually for rather prosaic reasons. When religion tries to mandate morality from authority you can be pretty sure that someone is feathering a nest or protecting a franchise. The morality from authority may well be needed for infants and children as a basis for building their own sense of morality, but they were never meant to be more than that. Let me go back to the Book of Genesis, and the lesson I find is so often hidden away and kept from the audience. The story goes that two folk, Adam and {St}Eve, eat some fruit from a forbidden tree. The fruit is from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
The Knowledge of Good and Evil. IMHO, this gets brushed aside in most tellings of the tale. Instead, those trying to feather their nest jump to the far less important part, the disobedience, and to the outcome, getting thrown out of the Garden. If it's okay with you I'd like for you to reexamine the story but looking primarily at the Fruit.
The Knowledge of Good and Evil. IMHO, this is an allegory for that moment for all mankind when we become aware of morals. It's saying "You no longer need Morality from Authority, YOU know what's good and what's evil. Now you have to live up to what YOU know."
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Tusko, posted 11-19-2004 11:29 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by Tusko, posted 11-23-2004 5:56 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 52 of 86 (162604)
11-23-2004 9:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 51 by Tusko
11-23-2004 5:56 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Thats why I think that its really hard to arrive at a set of morals through pure logic, uninfluenced by the culture that surrounds us. I agree. Morals are a human invention and will always be influenced by the culture.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by Tusko, posted 11-23-2004 5:56 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Tusko, posted 11-23-2004 10:48 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 54 of 86 (162682)
11-23-2004 2:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by Tusko
11-23-2004 10:48 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
If God has a definite idea of what's right and wrong, but humans can only derive a culturally relative morality with their limited powers of reasoning, isn't it impossible for us to please God through our actions unless he tells us what to do? A great question and one that I've tried to address a few times here. If we start with the OT as one source, I'd like to take you back to what I outlined in Message 50. IMHO the big message from the Genesis tales is that we have a Knowledge of Good and Evil, that that is both a gift and charge from GOD. In the NT it is reinforced in the two Great Commandments, "Love GOD" and the two parter, "Love others as you love yourself." We need to remember the second part, "Love yourself." If you look at almost every moral system, these are the real basics. Treat folk as you would like to be treated. you find this echoed in the Eastern Philosophies, Western Philosophies, most everywhere. From a Christian perspective we find this again displayed in Matthew 25.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. But it is not unique to Christianity or only the Judaic Faiths. Pretty is as pretty does. It really is that simple.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Tusko, posted 11-23-2004 10:48 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 56 by tsig, posted 11-24-2004 5:40 AM | | jar has replied | | | Message 57 by Tusko, posted 11-24-2004 6:44 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 58 of 86 (162885)
11-24-2004 9:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 56 by tsig
11-24-2004 5:40 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Are morals a human invention or of god, seems a clear contradiction. Morals most certainly are a human invention. The story of the Garden of Eden is simply saying that. It's saying, "You know what's right and wrong." That is the gift and charge from GOD. He's telling folk that they are capable and should know the difference and choose the better path.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by tsig, posted 11-24-2004 5:40 AM | | tsig has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by lfen, posted 11-24-2004 11:14 AM | | jar has not replied | | | Message 70 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 9:37 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 59 of 86 (162886)
11-24-2004 9:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Tusko
11-24-2004 6:44 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Its weird. There seems to be something contradictory about altruism when there is even the vaguest notion of a reward. That's not to say it doesn't make sense to me as a biological or social adaptation that benefits a community; it does. I just can't imagine a truly selfless act. It is hard to imagine but such things certainly happen. One such example is the soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save others. And the Rabbi is right.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Tusko, posted 11-24-2004 6:44 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by Tusko, posted 11-24-2004 9:53 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 61 of 86 (162896)
11-24-2004 10:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 60 by Tusko
11-24-2004 9:53 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
It seems my problem is that I'm seeing ANY compensation for an apparently altruistic action as a mitigator of genuine altruism. Is this faulty logically? I think it might be, but can't quite see how. If it does stand up to a modicum of scrutiny, how do you view this problem? Actually, I just don't acknowledge that there is a problem. We're wandering way OT here so I'll try to keep it brief. Let's say I do something nice for you. Is that a benefit to you?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by Tusko, posted 11-24-2004 9:53 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 65 by Tusko, posted 11-27-2004 5:58 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 66 of 86 (163453)
11-27-2004 9:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Tusko
11-27-2004 5:58 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
So if I do something for you, you benefit. Remember we're working based on when you said:
It seems my problem is that I'm seeing ANY compensation for an apparently altruistic action as a mitigator of genuine altruism. Is this faulty logically? I think it might be, but can't quite see how. If it does stand up to a modicum of scrutiny, how do you view this problem? Now if I also get a benefit when doing something good for you, does that diminish the value of what you recieved?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Tusko, posted 11-27-2004 5:58 AM | | Tusko has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 68 of 86 (163456)
11-27-2004 9:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 67 by sidelined
11-27-2004 9:22 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
If I give you ten dollars do you get ten dollars?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by sidelined, posted 11-27-2004 9:22 AM | | sidelined has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 71 of 86 (163461)
11-27-2004 9:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 69 by sidelined
11-27-2004 9:30 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Think it through completely. I did not mention whose currency. Assume for a second that it is ten dollars Canadian.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by sidelined, posted 11-27-2004 9:30 AM | | sidelined has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 72 of 86 (163462)
11-27-2004 9:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 70 by tsig
11-27-2004 9:37 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
But how did we come to know the difference?? Great question. And of course, not everyone does know the difference. I think in general the way we learn morals is through empathy.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 9:37 AM | | tsig has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 74 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 9:48 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 75 of 86 (163466)
11-27-2004 9:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 73 by tsig
11-27-2004 9:44 AM
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Getting pretty far off topic
again and it may well be my fault, but let me try to answer.
No, but it does change your motivation. You act in the hope of a reward. It MAY change my motivation. It is not necessarily black and white. My getting something from the act may be incidental, may be unintentional and may even be unknown to me before the fact. I might be motivated by the idea of my getting something, but then, that may not have anything to do with the issue. But in either case it does not reduce the value to you, nor is it necessarily bad. If you have kids, you will understand that there is NO joy greater than what you get from wathching your kids at Christmas or a birthday. They get presents but you get something far greater in the sheer joy of seeing them have fun.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 9:44 AM | | tsig has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 77 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 10:14 AM | | jar has not replied | | | Message 80 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 10:45 AM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 76 of 86 (163467)
11-27-2004 9:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 74 by tsig
11-27-2004 9:48 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
IMHO it is something more than the fact that we are social animals. There are many critters that could be classified as social animals but that seem to be totally amoral. As I have said before, even in this very thread I believe, IMHO there are four characteristics to human intellect that are unique to humans and that is the extent, intent, scope and empathy. I believe that those are both a gift and charge from GOD.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 9:48 AM | | tsig has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 10:27 AM | | jar has replied |
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