Greetings from the Sandbox.

No offense, but I find your overt pro-death imagery a bit disturbing, and rather conflicting with your pro-Xian sentiments.How do you balance these rather polar moral positions?Also, you say you believe literally in 6 day genesis? I assume this means a 6K year old earth as well. Have you spent any time looking at the areas of Iraq which are dated older than 6K? What do you make of these age estimates?Sorry if I seem a bit forward, but you seem like a tough guy (and can take it), and your referral to Iraq as "the sandbox" seems to have rubbed me the wrong way.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Among other literal and figurative imagery yes. This does not answer my queston. How do you balance that overtly antiXian moral practice with your spoken Xian moral system? Unless you are a satanist?Perhaps you can share a quote from Jesus which makes you feel that killing an breaking things is a worthy pursuit as a Xian. There's no sand in Israel? That's a new one. I think that just underscores what these euphemisms are about.In any case, this explanation does nothing for me. Sandbox is a place for kids to play. It is not serious. There are many many people dead and dying, and people like you and your opposite faction are doing the killing. That is serious.Let me put it this way. If I was in Indonesia right now working on relief efforts I would not refer to it as the "wading pool", or the "rock n roll capitol of the world". Such behavior is being callous and disrespectful of the death and suffering around you.You are also standing where people live (sand or not). That is their home. You were not exactly invited. Perhaps some respect is in order. Some humility? Yes it belongs in its own forum. I only mentioned it as you are in a unique position of being able to see human civilized areas that supposedly predate 6K, and have mentioned visiting other areas, so I wonder what you make of such things.Your response raises more questions of course. I assume you use modern equipment, including protective gear in your work. Why do you trust that they will work at all when materials science and assumptions which have gone into constructing your protective gear have the same source as those which go into carbon dating.Your entire persona confuses me, and I am honestly just trying to pin it down.You appear to be a Xian fundamentalist with no respect for death and suffering, indeed pursuing the acts of killing and destruction as your profession, using technology while at the same time pretending the knowledge used to create it must be false (not accurate) because it challenges a singular interpretation of writings which do not specifically give a date for the earth.Do you believe in heliocentrism, and if so, why have you rejected earth centered descriptions within the Bible?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I'm sorry, that still does not answer the question. Amish do not do this. Mennonites do not do this. I am not asking what gives you the legal right, I am asking how you can praise a man of peace who asked people not to kill, with a rather callous approach to killing others. I said a quote from Jesus. Yes, which is what makes my point valid. It is a part of the same region, has sand, and yet not part of the sandbox, why? Other regions also have areas of no sand and yet are part of the sandbox, why? That pretty much answers your own question.Do you know how many innocent people are killed by both sides? Do you have respect for them? Do you realize that referring to their land as "sandbox" is insulting to them? Maybe you could imagine someone invading the US to get at the KKK or some whacko evangelical group, killing your neighbors, and then referring to your home as the weedpatch.You are coming off as another ignorant thug, the exact copy of the people we were supposed to be replacing in Iraq. I am embarassed. Perhaps you should realize that you are not supposed to just be a killing machine. You are a representative of the US trying to help people that live in that "sandbox" to continue to live there. Someone else answered this already but I will repeat the point. You can't pick and choose science that you like on a whim. If you believe it works in the case of your body armor, you cannot simply say it doesn't work for carbon dating.You will note that I was not discussing evolution. I was discussing carbon dating. There is a huge difference. One is a general theory, the other is a procedure.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Be embarassed for what you just posted, not lecturing someone on something they did not say.Now go back and look at every post I made to him. Nowhere did I berate anyone for doing their job or even for killing.I was taking offense at his callous attitude toward those suffering around him, and his prodeath prokilling attitude. Comments such as "I kill, I break things" is not part of a soldier's job description. It is the self description of a thug.Be honest, if you saw a soldier of Hussein's say such a thing you would have said that was an example of the ignorance and thuggishness of his forces.That is not the only thing he said along those lines, which is insulting and inconsistent with the image we need to be displaying, and the imagery he proudly displays, right next to quotes from the Bible, are not consistent/appropriate as a Xian. Yes I know this is a valid interpretation. However pride is a sin, and pride in killing, even if the killing was necessary, is certainly not consistent with Xian ethics. Some feel he was not contradicting, but announcing a change, like the other changes he brought with him. Not that that is the only correct interpretation.That said, your citation does not support your claim. Jesus is saying his kingdom is not of this world and so there is no reason to fight.Now you find me where people are supposed to be haughty and boastful of their need to kill others, and use language that demeans the people they are fighting for.I am not anti military, nor anti killing. I am not even anti death penalty. I am against ignorant thuggery, and I am confused and curious by people that exhibit rather inconsistent moral principles.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

We don't. Neither do we have enough to absolve him.I believe if you look at my posts I said that his words rubbed me the wrong way and confused me because they seem to be portraying a certain inconsistent image, as well as an undesirable one.Other than the fact that he said that he is a US soldier and a fundamentalist Xian, please explain how the words he has used and the image he has presented are any different than the image of and words used by those we are fighting and said were intolerable? I kill and destroy things? Only if you are an ignorant soldier. Part of your job would include these possibilities, that is not the whole and certainly not the part you are supposed to be gloating on when you are supposed to be helping a nation rebuild.And I mentioned he made other comments.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

It is comments such as these that were used to villify Nazis, Japanese soldiers, Hussein's soldiers, and to some extent Al Queda members. If any of them had come here and said such a thing, would you not have said this is proof of their ignorant attitudes and callous disregard for life?He also said that the people he was fighting want to die a martyr's death and he was just helping them get their wish. Is that true HD13? For all of them including secularist Baath members? Or is it untrue? How many innocents have been killed in the crossfire as well?Did he come off to you as a good representative of the US military and Xian morality? Really? What on earth are you talking about? I just got done saying that was a possible interpretation. Indeed I have yet to get a straight line from many Xians on here whether the OT is removed or kept by Jesus, so don't yell at me.Remember I asked for his explanation on how he balances a prokilling attitude (which is clearly what was being portrayed... even Mike the Wiz picked up on that) and the general Xian morality which is supposed to be negative on killing and HIGH ON COMPASSION.I believe I have been through this very argument with you before. Funny how I am now contrary to theology by supporting what you said that Xianity is about love and compassion. I think a fundamentalist Xian would, given the amount of time spent berating all other faiths and non faiths for being bloody thirsty. But no, I don't think it is necessary. What I would expect to be exhibited is humility, and a downplaying of death.Did you see any of this in his post?Esprit de Corps and enthusiasm for the job of a soldier does not translate to idiotic comments such as "I kill, I break things" nor that one is helping martyrs get their wish. That is called gallows humor or hubris (when it is situational)... if it is a consistent and actual attitude for one's job, then we would all call it being a thug, right?We do not call such commentary esprit de corps when our enemies say such things. We are supposed to be better than that.If it is gallows humor, then it appears inconsistent for a devout Xian who should conceivably be humbled by the task being undertaken and less callously hubristic. That is why I asked.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

That's funny. Go back and look at my first reply. It was post #7.Find where it assumed any of the above. I stated confusion because of what I perceived and asked for clarification.I also apologized for being abrasive, recognizing that was not usual and admitted that it was because his slang rubbed ME the wrong way. I did not in any way say that everyone at EvC was or should be offended.In later posts I clarified this further and so did he in a way that should make very clear that "sandbox" is an insult, especially to those that live in the region. Did you by any chance note that Israel is left out of the sandbox? Gee yet he admits there are desert areas... hmmmmm.On top of being an insult, even if glibly thrown and meant in jest, given the tragedy of what is going on there it is additionally callous.Like I said, if I was in Indonesia, would it be cool for me to say "greetings from the wading pool" or "greetings from the rock and roll capitol of the world"? Or is it that you like to pretend there is not a great tragedy occuring in Iraq?Once again, look at my post. All I stated is what I saw as confusing and asked for clarification. I realize it came off as a bit abrupt and challenging but I said why.Might I ask why this guy is being treated like a delicate flower?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Oh that is true. I did not mean to say it was just their iconography we objected to. But it was that iconography and stated attitude toward death which was used to point out what an opposing culture that was. Is this not true? Lies. You have no idea who I am, or what experiences I have been through. You also have no idea of the experiences of my family and friends. I already said I understood gallows humor. Very coarse gallows humor and hubris about killing is not good for maintaining orderly and civilized troops. While it happens it should not be allowed to manifest so glibly in every day life.On top of that I would expect coarse humor and hubris from nonXians. People who claim to peace I would expect to act more seriously about the tragedy, even if not guilty about it. It is a surprise to hear otherwise which is what set off my question. It certainly would not have flown well with all my Xian soldier relatives. Oh, you missed him in another thread I see. Who the hell are you arguing with???? I have already said this was true. It was the apparent pride and hubris regarding the killing which seemed wholly inconsistent. I mentioned the Amish only as an example that in war and self-defense not all Xians believe killing is right. I maintain my position that if anyone other than an American Xian soldier had come in with the same statements and iconography, it would have been used against him.As it stands as an American I do not like it because we are supposed to be winning hearts and minds at this point and callousness is not needed. It is counterproductive. And as I said my Xian relatives would certainly have been shocked. How does thinking someone on our side should have some compassion and respect for the death going on around have anything to do with making death taboo? Or wondering at the apparent inconsistency of his position, which did not seem peaceloving at all?But PKKB... sex comes to all of us, why do you guys make it out to be such a taboo?I suggest you read my first post again, it was not as negative as you are making it out to be. You somehow missed the fact that I am an equivalent blackbelt (we used a traditional system without belts) in a martial art I guess. Personally I like the more aggresive sports as well. You sound like someone who is having a maturity crisis. Why does care and compassion equal weakness to you?Oh by the way, nice argument on why it is esprit de corps. Very convincing. Blowing things up and killing people is a requirement of duty. If it is a gratifying part of the job, I wouldn't want you in the service. Maturity and compassion is what separates my good guys from my bad guys. Go to the thread I have opened on that topic and voice your opinion.By the way my panties aren't in a twist, but I am suprised yours are not given all the position bending going on. I guess this just goes to show what a bunch of BS all that absolute morality talk is.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Yes let us "set the record straight".Holmes is:1) pro military
2) reluctant to war and so generally pacifist, but believes there will never be a utopia and as such war is sometimes necessary and service is honorable.
3) pro death penalty
4) firmly for the war in afghanistan
5) against the war in Iraq because it was not useful and diverted resources, but did not cry over Hussein as he himself has done stuff like this. I hope something good will come out of his removal.
6) And for all the candyasses in the crowd I enjoy martial arts and violent sports (though not as a spectator).Nothing in your lecture reflected my outlook and what I stated in this thread or at EvC in general.Almost my entire point related to attitude toward service and duty and those under your care. Get a grip, go back and reread. Then go to my thread on standards for soldiers and make comments. I think I have already made my points on this. I would never have invaded Iraq at that time or as ill planned as had been done. Even staunch supporters are now admitting it was botched and illtimed.That said, given that it has happened and we don't have time machines, we need to have very strong military support. We do all have an investment in making sure Bush's collosal blunder turns out right.Now that I have firmly stated I am not for removing troops immediately and have nothing against military service, can you address my actual position? What does an appreciation for service and being a good soldier (xian or otherwise) have to do with prodeath attitudes and iconography as well as glib slander?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Heheheh... actually I think I was the one that opened it. One would think you were a wilting flower with all of the people clamouring erroneously to your defense (erroneous in that they never got my position right).I apologize for bringing up the directly EvC related topic as it could have waited for other forums. I just got very curious and I did have my hackles up from something else.Let me make it clear that I do not have anything against the military and though I firmly opposed the Iraq war (as compared to Afghanistan) I have nothing against those that served in it or think something cannot be made of that service.My problem is what appeared to be a glib and insensitive attitude to your position and your duties. Part of it was as a US citizen, in that I do not view such attitudes as proper for what we are supposed to be getting across. You may not have meant it or realized it, but it came off that way. Then there was a general confusion regarding how a Xian can hold such a glib and hubristic attitude toward position and duty. It certainly did not correspond to the peace loving Xian soldiers I have known. You came off as callous as those which we are calling an enemy. Okay, we can wait for the proper forum for this. I just don't see how that can be held consistently. You have already conflated evolution with carbon dating (which is a pretty big error) and as it stands I doubt you were having issues with the WMD teams and those examining mass graves. They use similar methods. You have made the assumption, not me. I told you what attitude I was seeing displayed and it seemed inconsistent and so I was asking for clarification. I did not even state that you were a war junkie. However you are glib and proud of the parts of your duty which I would think should be the most tactful and sober.Can you look at what you wrote from a different perspective and ask what a neutral person would make of that persona? It did not seem like the soldiers we are supposed to be fielding and it seemed inconsistent to the vision of a Xian soldier. No, this is untrue and you do not need to believe this fallacy in order to have confidence in your job. Perhaps news has not reached you guys (though another EvCer from Iraq did seem to know) but Iraq has nothing to do with mr and mrs US citizen. Iraq had no connection to 9-11 nor was it ever fielding such types of terrorists.You are conducting a mercy mission for the Iraqi people, with the hopes that they will live better, and by one day living better will act as an inspiration for democracies to flourish in the region. It is believed (by Bush) that with democracies in place militant islam will weaken and die and we will then be safer.However that flies in the face of all evidence. We are a "democracy" and we have Xian religious radicals blowing things up and killing people. Britain is a democracy and has religious and political radicals blowing things up and killing people. Spain is a democracy and so on and so on...Your primary mission at this point (since terrorism and WMDs have been firmly discounted) is relieving the Iraqi people of Hussein's rule and helping them forge a new and functioning gov't. I really and totally support you in this. Insurgents is a pretty big tent. You are right and I am not saying you were similar to the insurgents. All I ever said is that you displayed the same callous attitudes which were used to show what we were not held by the IRAQI ARMY. As you point out most of the insurgents are from outside and they have more to do with something else entirely.That said, some of the insurgents are doing exactly what you are doing and all have the same purpose. After Hussein was brought down there was a power vacuum. Many different players want to influence where the new Iraq ends up.That does not make your mission lesser. You are fighting to give (as much as will be given) the government to the people of Iraq. I think that is a more valid mission.That says nothing about attitude and iconography which is what I had questions about. Unless you belong to an army of ogres, or Forest Gump, it is pretty ignorant sounding to say "I kill, I break things"... don't you think?If I went to mechanic and he said "I turns wrenches, I fix" does that inspire confidence?On top of this, my point has still been missed. I would not expect a Xian soldier to be emphasizing those portions of his duty and in that manner. It does seem inconsistent.Now be honest, is "I kill, I break things" a form of esprit de corps as was advanced? And does it sound like a reflection of a devout Xian? Well that's not true right on its face. Your mission is to end conflict and when necessary kill. There has already been one militant leader who is not only not the target of US bullets, but is protected by the Iraqi gov't. A stand off which ends in peaceful resolution is preferred is it not?I realize that will not be the option you are always given and you will have to kill. Again, where does the pride come in that function?Even the quote from Psalms does not support your apparent attitude, your persona. He did not make glib commentary, though glad about the deaths of his enemy. It was honoring God for helping him defeat those that were trying to defeat him.They want to be martyrs and I help them get their wish is not of the same caliber. If the opposition said "US soldiers want to see Jesus and I am helping them get their wish" would that not sound ignorant and not so peace loving to you?I opened a thread more approriate for further discussion on this specific topic. You can reply to me there.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

None of this addresses the points I made.Yes, Israel has grass and trees in parts. It is more agriculturally developed, though such projects are going on throughout the MidEast other nations also have much more land. Iraq cannot possibly have the same reclamation abilities as Israel. Can you figure out why?In the end Israel is a desert and exists in a desert, just like the rest. You can pretty well find that even in the Bible.It seems a bit lacking in introspection to believe "sandbox" is a neutral statement with logical reasons of floral conditions to exclude Israel.(edited in: I checked out the link. It was ignorant and offensive though I see what the humor is. I don't mind poking fun at other cultures and that can always be ignorant and offensive (I think we have a thread on that).To me personally it crossed the line when the guy shot the guy singing God is great, but hey taste is subjective.That said, if that bit of humor represents your attitude about the midEast and Islam (interestingly the clip is so ignorant as to confuse arab and Islam) you are in some sad shape. If you don't think it would be offensive to the very people you are supposed to be helping, and indicative of an disinterest in actually helping those people, then you are ignorant.I am still confounded as to how you claim fundie Xian ethics and enjoy patently offensive and violent humor like that.){second edit: I like how your site is run by someone called heretic}This message has been edited by holmes, 01-01-2005 07:01 AMThis message has been edited by holmes, 01-01-2005 07:04 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Oh boy I need a permanent explanation somewhere. I have a habit of using as short of phrases as possible. If you stay on long enough you will even see me use what are often considered negative phrases for evolutionary theorists toward myself.There was a whole debate on using Xian versus Christian. That simply is not offensive at all, as it comes from historical Xianity.Fundie is the only thing that can actually be considered offensive. Given that I am not occupying a Xian nation, nor saying things like the Midwest is fundie central except Chicago, there simply is no comparison between what I say and what you say.As it stands if you have a shorter way of writing fundamentalist which you feel is not offensive, I will gladly use it. Desert drivel? Okay come on now. What I said was fact. Or maybe there is an answer to this within your own statement. Someone who "visited these countries" knows what you are talking about. Someone who has lived in those countries or has friends in those countries (including Israel) or has done research on those countries actually knows what they are talking about.I mean are you seriously claiming Israel was not historically desert terrain, is not green in parts only because of reclamation efforts, is still desert in portions and that which is green would return to desert if the reclamation efforts ended?Some of Israel is like an oasis in a desert. That is true of other parts of the MidEast as well, is that not so? Wait a second, don't get me wrong. I am not saying it is not funny. I clearly said I saw what the humor was.I am a huge supporter of the absolute subjectivity of taste and that includes humor.It started kind of funny but the lack of accurate info and blatant silliness eventually built up and then I didn't find shooting a guy singing God is Great was funny at all (was a singer supposed to be a terrorist?). Thus it wasn't funny to me.My confusion came from the FACT that the joke is based on the idea that liberal sexual mores are good and a reason to live. Maybe all the comments about sand made you miss everything else, but what that guy said seemed inconsistent with your comment in an earlier thread that liberal sexual mores are detrimental.In addition it was patently offensive humor, meaning it derived humor from making offensive statements. I like offensive humor and have defended it in threads at EvC. So that is not any issue I am making. I do wonder though why a Xian would find such offensive statements as funny.I also pointed out it was filled with ignorant commentary that one would hope is not your actual view of the region and the people. Not being able to tell between arab, Islam, and militant Islam is about as ignorant appearing as thinking french fries have something to do with France.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Okeydoke. I think everything has been ironed out. I replied before seeing your post in the other thread.We obviously have different ways of going about making our points known. It is interesting that you prefer private emails. I definitely do not.I agree I implied that he could be contradictory, but had not meant that he definitely was. I was trying to say that the appearance (to me) was of a contradictory nature. This is of course why I wanted clarification. If I have a failing in debate it is a tendency to slight exaggeration and button pushing (using sarcasm). I didn't mean to make you sad, though I am unsure why you wouldn't want to talk about Iraq in general right now (I get not arguing whether we should have or not, since that is the past). But that's fine. I do feel, and realize that this is a perception, that he is getting a strange amount of protection that I don't think would have been afforded others.If that is not the case for you, and you are new so I wouldn't know, then I apologize. Well I hope this comment is not about anything I have done. Always feel free to be completely blunt about debate shortcomings I may have. I have an open invitation for anyone to do so. Just please be accurate and not simply saying I must be wrong because of an opinion. Part of my interest in this site is to improve.In any case, you seem pretty cool even if we disagreed. Very even handed. You may become quite popular like NosyNed who is definitely mister cool at EvC. I admit you have the debate high ground, even if I feel you may have leaned a bit too much on the side of courtesy.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)