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Author | Topic: A serious question to evolutionists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Delshad Inactive Member |
Lets first begin with a human eye-brow and why it is there and how it evolved according to some evolutionists:
Its function is said to be that it keeps the sweat away from our eyes.You and me are both agreable on that. Further that it havent always been there and that it has evolved through natural selection, there the creationist turn right and the evolutionist left and they both claim that theyre way is the right way.But after reading this I hope you wont make any wrong turns. First of all evolution through natural selection doesnt have a CONCIENCE, so as to say it cant plan ahead or determine ANYTHING.Just wanted to make that clear. So in order for even a single hair above the eye to arise, a mutation (replacement of the genetical structure of the DNA) have had to occure.Most of the people know that mutations are almost always harmful or at its peak, inefficient. That is to say, that the probabilities for a mutation to occur is very ,very low. Then the probability for this new hair to arise just at the convenient spot (above the eye to prevent the sweat reaching the eye)is also very ,very low. Then finally and here`s the important bit,( because improbabilities tend to be widely accepted by evolutionists) is that ONE hair isnt enough to make ANY sort of advantage to the bearer. Its just an ineffective material that doesnt improve its chance to reproduce. That specie would have to wait thousands of years inorder for another hairstring to be misplaced in the convenient symmetrical spot next to the first hair string. And on and on for millions of years until it has gathered enough hair to start to make a function(Preventing sweat).Again, evolution HAS no CONCIENCE so it could not have known from the beggining that this was going to be the final product.How does evolutionists explain this simple example , And keep in mind that this is nothing compared to the complex organs that exists in nature and whereas all components have to be there right from the beginning, slow progress is completely out of the question in those cases. I hope youll be able to give a descent answer to my question and ill always try to response back. Good luck ------------------
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7607 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
quote: Depends what you mean by "function" - it's a loaded term. If used in a purposive sense it may give the impression that the eyebrow is somehow intended to perform that function. This teleological approach may be too strong. However, you may mean simply that the eyebrow is there, and being there, keeps sweat out of the eye, and by keeping sweat out of the eye confers a slight selective advantage and therefore we can talk, after the fact, of its de facto function. I hate analogical reasoning, but let me try ... I have a screwdriver which I use for opening paint tins. It's function is a paint tin opener, but that is not its purposive function: it was not designed for that. But it is now used only for this , so its de facto function is as a paint tin opener. When I went through my old tools in spring for a charity garage sale, I selected the old screwdriver and kept it back - for its function as a tin opener, though it was never intended to be one. You see, evolution does not need to plan ahead. It simply doesn't work that way. The screwdriver had no plan to be a paint tin opener - but it happened to do the job and now it survives in my tool box. And, by the way, the special paint tin opener given me by HomeBase last time I bought paint there: that was one of the first things chucked into the garage sale! Who needs it when I have an old, rather bashed about, imperfect, but very functional screwdriver? Now I remember why I hate analogies! Anyway, you probably thought you were starting with an easy, "everyone-will-agree-with-this-so-lets-get-on-to-the-real-problem-with-evolution" sort of statement. Would that life were so simple, Delshad.
[B][QUOTE]But after reading this I hope you wont make any wrong turns.[/B][/QUOTE] Let's see how well you keep us on the straight path, then, shall we?
[B][QUOTE]First of all evolution through natural selection doesnt have a CONCIENCE, so as to say it cant plan ahead or determine ANYTHING. Just wanted to make that clear.[/B][/QUOTE] I presume you mean "consciousness" rather than "conscience." If you want to make things clear, best to use the right words. But perhaps you did mean "moral sense", though it is difficult to see moral significance of an eyebrow.
[B][QUOTE]So in order for even a single hair above the eye to arise, a mutation (replacement of the genetical structure of the DNA) have had to occure.[/B][/QUOTE] Hmmm. Don't you think the question in human evolution would be "how come all the hair on our ancestors hairy ape faces disappeared except for the eyebrow?"
[B][QUOTE]Most of the people know that mutations are almost always harmful or at its peak, inefficient. That is to say, that the probabilities for a mutation to occur is very ,very low.[/B][/QUOTE] I think you mean the "probabilities for a mutation which will be selected for" are very low. The probabilities of a mutation are very high indeed - practically 1, given the nature of DNA transcription. That is why you don't look exactly like either of your parents, and why even identical twins have differences.
[B][QUOTE]Then the probability for this new hair to arise just at the convenient spot (above the eye to prevent the sweat reaching the eye)is also very ,very low.[/B][/QUOTE] Well, as I said before, the other descendents of our ancestors are covered with hair all over their foreheads: I think you are asking the wrong question.
[B][QUOTE]Then finally and here`s the important bit,( because improbabilities tend to be widely accepted by evolutionists) is that ONE hair isnt enough to make ANY sort of advantage to the bearer.[/B][/QUOTE] Homer Simpson seems to think so! Oh but hang on - he has two!
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nos482 Inactive Member |
quote: I think that the eyebrow was also to help shield the eyes from the sun as well. At one time we were a lot hairier than we are now. One thing you may realize is that evolution is a very wasteful process and only those who can survive long enough get to pass along those traits which have helped them survive. BTW, can anyone name the fallacy he is using?
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5710 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Argumentum ad Hovindum Cheers Joe Meert
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7607 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
Just spotted this one in Delshad's post (my emphasis)...
quote: If that was deliberate, it's one of the best puns I've seen from a creationist!
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nos482 Inactive Member |
quote: Now that is a real fallacy. Sadly it is not included in the list on the Fallacies site; Fallacies - Nizkor
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Jeff Inactive Member |
quote: I am wondering how this conclusion was reached.Is it not also possible that a human ancestor had hair covering most of their head, up to the face - and even over most of the face ? This would mean the inherited change was a REDUCTION of hair that left the eyebrows as a legacy. If we're discussing hypotheticals, we should look from both directions:-an increase of facial hair -a reduction of facial hair jeff ------------------"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7696 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
Dear Delshad,
Maybe ask them about the newborn's swim reflex in conjunction with the GAG reflex. Lay back and let's enjoy the stories Best wishes,Peter
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derwood Member (Idle past 1906 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: Better yet, let's hear Peter B.'s amazing, paradigm-busting story that explains it, that will surely not rely on unwarranted inferrences and will lots of unequivocal data to support it, just like his letter to Nature surely did.
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7696 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
Dear SLPx,
It is a good question, isn't it? Peter
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derwood Member (Idle past 1906 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: Yeah, I guess you can't answer it. Must be that your preferred explanation is thus disproofed.
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5063 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
Dear Mr. P;
That "depends" is contingent for my reading of people who read SJ Gould, so this is very interesting because I doubt my reading can be correct yet to correct this writing would be rather difficult. NO substance from me yet. This was out of a book on Post-Modernism and Science which attempted to show how to use Gould's worm of the shale bed to re-develop embryology. One does not need SJ Gould to do this which means I would prefer to read this "eye-brow" as not the icon it is but the human trait it was but then again I doubt 'perhaps' = 'that depends'.
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7696 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
dear SLPx,
Yes, I can answer this question in a 'scientific' way. It involves virtual particles --let's call them creatons-- interacting with matter in a morphogenetic field (earth) that gives rise to a genetic program that specifies reflex arches. Let's abbreviate it: creation. Best wishes,Peter
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derwood Member (Idle past 1906 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: Considering your track record, I find it difficult to tell whether or not you are being facetious.
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7696 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
Dear SLPx,
It is a perfectly valid scientific hypothesis, even better than invoking space-aliens, since that only relocates the problem. Maybe it is even testable, and maybe I could even provide some biological indirect evidence for it. Do you like the idea?Best wishes Peter [This message has been edited by peter borger, 09-27-2002]
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