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Author | Topic: soul of fundamentalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Chris Porcelain writes: If Jesus Christ respected these writings and spoke about them plainly then why can't you. What makes you think that you can question the writings of these men when Jesus Christ didn't? I guess that I DO try and frame conversations according to an efficient method and that this "ringleader mentality" irritates some of you. Sorry, its a bad habit. My Mom does the same thing to me and I get irritated with her! Sorry,Chris. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 11:56 AM
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Okay.
Thought that might be where I was failing in my communication. Hamelin was the town that hired the piper to get rid of all the rats. After he got rid of them they refused to pay him his wages, so he piped off all the children and they were never seen again. It's a horrible, frighting story, one of failure, justice and wrathful punishment, just like the tales of Lot and Noah. It's the source for "Paying the piper!" Luke 17 is very similar. Jesus is instructing folk using examples. It doesn't matter whether the examples are real or fictional, it is the message that is important. He is telling the same tale as in the Pied Piper of Hamelin and is not intending that the story of Lot or of Noah are anything more than additional examples. He's saying, "Remember what happened in Hamelin?" This message has been edited by jar, 03-05-2005 12:13 AM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: So are you suggesting that Jesus Himself did not believe in a literal Noah and/or a literal Flood and a literal destruction of Sodom? (Hold up...I'm reading...) Is there anything that would make someone think he viewed the tales of Noah any differently then any of the other examples and techniques he used regularly?Jar writes: OK...I see your point. I am unsure where I stand in regards to word for word literalism as opposed to thought for thought literalism. It doesn't matter whether the examples are real or fictional, it is the message that is important. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 11:18 AM
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So are you suggesting that Jesus Himself did not believe in a literal Noah and/or a literal Flood and a literal destruction of Sodom? (Hold up...I'm reading...) Actually, yes. I don't believe that Jesus believed any of those were real stories. I don't think Jesus assigned any significance more than story or fable to the Garden of Eden, Adam & {St}Eve, Sodom, the Flood, Exodus or most such tales. If Jesus is GOD, surely he would know there was not a world-wide flood and it's not possible to gather all the animals, how the universe was really formed and that they were but folk tales. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
A Christian who believes in Biblical Inerrency would say that Jesus knew that the O.T. was a series of literal events.
Remember, though, that there was no Bible in those days. There were scrolls of the Old Testament writings and of the prophets. How do we know what Jesus thought of word for word literalism?
NIV writes:
It seems to me, based on this scripture, that Jesus was not so concerned that the Disciples memorized the scrolls as He was that they knew the Father.
Matt 10:14-20= If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.NIV writes:
Notice how Jesus emphasizes knowing Him as opposed to knowing scripture(scrolls). Matt 11:27-30= "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. So guys, this IS intriguing. What do you think, Chris? Am I on the same page with what you were talking about? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 12:03 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Although I DO believe that there was a literal Fall and a literal allowance of Original Sin and literal separation from God foreknown and correctable ONLY through acceptance of and trust in Jesus Christ. Surely He knew this.
I don't think Jesus assigned any significance more than story or fable to the Garden of Eden...Jar writes: I think that a parable, by definition, is never fictional in the sense of being made up. Parables are real examples of human imperfection interacting with God. It doesn't matter whether the examples are real or fictional, it is the message that is important. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 11:41 AM
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I think we are wandering too far afield with that. Maybe in another thread.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Well, we are talking about fundamentals, are we not? Plus I added to that last thread...
ChrisPorcelain writes: There is a story within a story in scripture, and Christ knew that, and followers of Christ know that. Yeah you are right. You are smart for your age...and I sometimes overintellectualize things...Jar knows! This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 12:01 AM
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1270 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
If you owed me money and you said "remember in the days of the piper when he took all the children away, well I will pay you back eventually because I don't want something terrible like that to happen to me." I wouldn't believe you would pay me back because that never happened.
So when Jesus said: "on the day when Lot left Sodom fire and brimstone rained from the sky to destroy them all. So it will be when the sun of man is revealed" Why should we believe him? And if what you say is true why would Jesus exploit the people by using a story that everyone thought was true and putting fear in them that it will happen again when it never really happened? Is Jesus dishonest?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If you owed me money and you said "remember in the days of the piper when he took all the children away, well I will pay you back eventually because I don't want something terrible like that to happen to me." I wouldn't believe you would pay me back because that never happened. If I said "I'll pay you back because honesty is the best policy.", would you believe me? Or are you simply going to doubt anything I say?
So when Jesus said: "on the day when Lot left Sodom fire and brimstone rained from the sky to destroy them all. So it will be when the sun of man is revealed" Why should we believe him? What is it he wants us to believe?
And if what you say is true why would Jesus exploit the people by using a story that everyone thought was true and putting fear in them that it will happen again when it never really happened? What was it that Jesus wanted people to think? Why do you think people considered any of those stories true?
Is Jesus dishonest? Jesus is a teacher using parable, analogy and examples. It's no more dishonest using the myth of the flood or the GOE than using the story of the Good Samaritan. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Actually, it has always been pretty clear to me that Jesus was portrayed as talking about a literal kingdom on earth, in at least the earlier Gospels. He speaks of people listening to him during a sermon being alive when he returned, for one thing. The Gospel of John, for example, is very different from the other three Gospels in that it portrays the "kingdom" as a spiritual one, while the earlier ones clearly considered Jesus an actual leader which would come back from the dead to lead his people to a military victory over their oppressors.
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1270 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
quote: he didn't come to challenge the laws
quote: quote: I could ask you a quesion like Jesus is greater than fictional characters? But it would be easier to just tell you that you are dishonestly interpreting Jesus' words to fit your world view, so your faith is safe, that nothing could ever put it into question, touch it. What's the point of having faith if you form your belief of God so that you don't need it. You have reached a certain stepping stone that most people at this board will never pass, you have the intellectual capacity in that you can see a God, but so you don't have any faith to your faith, a claim of christianity, well it was founded on Abraham, judaism, recorded in the old testament and believed by Christ, now you seem smug interpreting the Jesus' words when at any moment you could say if Jesus' said something you might be looked down upon in society, you can shrug it off and say it was said to explain a point, or the writer wrote that Jesus said that because it was political.
quote: THat he will come back with judgement, with punishment. Why should we believe him if that never happened to Sodom, and there is no Sodom or Lot? At the judgement "the men of nineveh won't condemn it, neither will the "queen of the south", because he said that to scare you, they didn't exist. It's like saying I will shoot you but I don't have a clip, but I'm pretending I do have a clip. Or maybe jar you could say these people are being used to symbolize something,of what you said Jesus didn't really mean truthfully of these people in the jewish texts, to be used to show a message that you shouldn't need a sign, in that, Righteous men have faith This message has been edited by chris porcelain, 03-05-2005 19:59 AM
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry Chris, I've read and re-read your last post about a half dozen times and I still can't figure out what you're trying to say.
Try breaking it down into simple questions or complete sentences and I'll give it another try. Thanks. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1270 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
ok h/o
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1270 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
any better?
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