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Author Topic:   Al Gore, the Internet, and the Gullibility of the Populace
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 58 (196636)
04-04-2005 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
04-03-2005 8:17 PM


quote:
No, he took THE initiative. It was directly because of Al Gore that ARPANet was expanded to commercial use.
... which is totally trivial. In the first place, it was happening anyway - the internet structures such as .com and .edu indicated that the net had already expanded to commercial and educational institutions. Admittedly it had done so as a branch of its military role, but the whole design of the internet made it useful for all sorts of things.
quote:
Except that it is. It is literally, word-for-word true. The Internet would not exist as we know it today were it not for Al Gore.
Nonsense. If anyone is to take credit for the net "as we know it today", it is Sir Timothy Berners-Lee, who invented hypertext, or HTTP, at CERN. Thus, 99% of what is actually *experienced* on the web "as we know it today" is directly traceable to Berners-Lee, not Gore.
The need for a packet-switching network was established by experiment in 1965 by Lawrence Roberts, and this technology was included in the plan for ARPANET drawn up in '67. And ALL of the internet is implicit in packet-switching.
It is misleading to describe Kahn and Cirf as inventors of "the networking protocol", because there are many such protocols. Specifically the developed the packet-switching concept to full TCP/IP as we have it today. But this most certainly does not give them
credibility to ascribe this to Gore.
Gore can be given credit for recognising the potential of the internet, although in this he was unusual only among politicians. Everyone in the industry knew that it was going to break, and it duly did. Gor is a bit part player, IMO.
quote:
Huh? A reporter asks a political representative a political question and receives a political answer and suddenly you think they're talking about the technical side of things? That makes absolutely no sense at all.
It makes plenty of sense - becuase Gore was, at the most charitable, foolish to have used the word "invent". He claimed creation, but what he gave was belated support. This claim has rightly damaged Gore's credibility, because it looks far more like bombast than that he knows what he is talking about. If I claimed to INVENT the telephone, you would expect me to have invented the telephone, rather than to have merely said it was a good thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 04-03-2005 8:17 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Rrhain, posted 04-08-2005 5:17 AM contracycle has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 58 (196861)
04-05-2005 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
04-05-2005 1:16 AM


He's still a lame-ass carpetbagger taking credit for other peoples work.
I don;t recall the then-president taking credit for atomic power. I don;t recall the then-president taking credit for the telephone, or the light bulb, or whatever. Mostly, politicians have allowed the actual inventors to take the credit, and made some genuflection to the national spirit of ingenuity and natural creativity of the [insert state] people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 04-05-2005 1:16 AM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 04-08-2005 5:32 AM contracycle has replied
 Message 27 by Trae, posted 04-08-2005 10:25 PM contracycle has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 58 (198223)
04-11-2005 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Rrhain
04-08-2005 5:17 AM


quote:
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?
Watch closely and I'll say it again: it was totally trivial.
quote:
Do you think anything happens without money? Considering that they were using a military network system, do you think it could have been done without Congressional approval and spending?
None of which Al Gore had anything to do with, as far as I am aware. Are you swityching from saying that Gore recognised the civil, to recognising the military, virtues of the net?
quote:
There was more than one networking protocol at the time. Ever heard of BITNET? If you didn't use VAXen, you might not have. It had the big relay chat thing long before the Internet was ever heard of.
Many protocols, only one INTERNET.
quote:
".com"? What is this ".com" you speak of? There was no such thing as ".com" in 1983. The first name server didn't come online until 1984 and .com, .net., and .org domains didn't appear until 1985
They had allocated IP ranges from the earliest days, becuase the system was connected to university campuses and defence contravtors. The upper level domain system, and the DNS name lookup system, were introduced later as cosmetic improvements - but that does not change the underlying technology.
quote:
"HTTP"? What is this "HTTP" you speak of? The advent of the browser wouldn't appear until the 90s. The Internet as we know it is from 1983. Do not confuse the fact that you are seeing a pretty picture rather than plain text with some sort of new "version" of the Internet.
I've been on the net since it was all FTP and Telnet, thanks. I'm well aware of what hypertext is. But I generously assumed that hypertext might be what you were referring to, becuase otherwise pretty much everything was done when packet switching was developed. 99% of what people EXPERIENCE is http.
quote:
And how is that not developing the networking protocol used by the Internet? What do you think the "I" in "IP" stands for?
In the same way that designing the Ford Mondeo os not "inventing the car", it is designing A car. TCP/IP (Transport Control Protocol/Internet Protocol) is not the only packet-switching protocol, merely the best/maximally efficient.
quote:
But they didn't! Where in their letter did they even hint that Gore had anything to do with programming the thing?
Duh, I didn't suggest they said that at all. Please read more closely.
quote:
ow does one possibly interpret this statement to mean that he "invented" the internet? Wolf Blitzer certainly didn't think it was weird when Gore said it straight to his face and nobody in the media thought to say anything about it for two days after.
And why on earth would you expect the media to know what they were looking at? They merely record and regurgitate; in fact getting a response in two days is pretty quick, seeing as that arose from the public. He was a laughing stock before the media reflected that response.
quote:
He didn't say what you think he said, contracycle. You bought the lie.
Did I, or did you?

GORE: "Well, I will -- I'll be offering my vision when my campaign begins, and it'll be comprehensive and sweeping, and I hope that it'll be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be. But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. "
The U. S. Government
quote:
And that's exactly what he did. He created what was necessary to make the Internet what we have today. The bill that does so bears his name. It's called the "Gore Act."
And what does it do, and why would a packet switching network care?
I can find:
quote:
"This "Gore Act" supported the National Research and Education Network (NREN) initiative that became one of the major vehicles for the spread of the Internet beyond the field of computer science."
What does that mean exactly? And how does this initiative in 1991 have anything to do with a technology, packet switching, which essentially IS the internet and was operational from the mid 60's?
It remains nonsense I'm afraid:
quote:
Summary of eRumor:
Al Gore has made statements that he is the creator of the Internet.
bullet The Truth:
This comes from a television interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer that was aired on March 9,1999. TruthOrFiction.com has a transcript of the entire broadcast. Vice President Gore was not yet a formal candidate for the presidency, but was clearly setting the stage for it, and Blitzer's questions focused on his potential campaign. At one point, Blitzer asked Gore why the Democrats should support him over rival Bill Bradley. Gore answered, "Well, I will -- I'll be offering my vision when my campaign begins, and it'll be comprehensive and sweeping, and I hope that it'll be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be. But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."
Some of the emails criticizing Gore for this statement point out that Gore has often shown ignorance about computers, so how could he have created the Internet? He did not claim, however, to be a computer geek who toiled in his basement and came up with the idea. He did claim that somehow as a member of congress he not only played in role in creating the Internet, but "took the initiative" to do it.
To his credit, Al Gore has participated in advancing information technology. When he was a senator, he supported funding for NSFNet through the High Performance Computing Act that became law in 1991. He wrote guest columns for Byte magazine that reflected an appreciation of technology. But even his supporters have to say that any notion of having created the Internet is tough to stomach.
According to the encyclopedia Britannica, the Internet dates back to at least 1973 and in an article that broke the Gore story, Declan McCullagh of Wired News says the Net goes back as far as 1967 when Al gore was 19 years old. The U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency started experimenting with ways to allow networked computers to link and communicate. It was called The Internetting project and the ultimate system became known as The Internet. In a related article on March 11, 1999 in Wired News, McCullagh says Gore has introduced bills about software for teachers and a "federal research center for educational computing to support an "information systems highway."
We've never found any explanation by Gore as to why he made the claim, but he did have a sense of humor about it. At a meeting of Democratic leaders, he said, " I was pretty tired when I made that comment because I had been up very late the night before inventing the camcorder."
Al Gore claimed responsibility for creation of the Internet-Truth! - Truth or Fiction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Rrhain, posted 04-08-2005 5:17 AM Rrhain has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 58 (198224)
04-11-2005 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rrhain
04-08-2005 5:32 AM


quote:
Huh? The people whose work he's supposedly taking credit for don't think he tried to take credit for their work.
Yes, they do. Admittedly they might be more exercised about it if the cvlaim were less ludicrous, but it would be safe to say that Gores stock fell dramatically in the industry as a result of this claim.
quote:
Gore did not take credit for inventing the internet. He took credit for getting the government to make it what it is today.
And what exactly did the government do? Build routers? Lay cable? As far as I am aware that was done under the auspices of DARPA, long before Gore was involved, and subsequent developement by private business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 04-08-2005 5:32 AM Rrhain has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 58 (198227)
04-11-2005 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tusko
04-08-2005 7:38 AM


Re: Scary Manipulation
quote:
Isn't it scary that a public figure's words can be so utterly misrepresented, and his credibility severely damaged, EVEN WHEN HIS ORIGINAL WORDS ARE ON PUBLIC RECORD?
The question is, who is manipulating the public record?
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system."
http://www.cnn.com/...sident.2000/transcript.gore/index.html
He quite clearly claims creation - and mainfestly doesn;t understand what he is talking about:
quote:
Larry Roberts, now CEO of Packetcom, noted that in 1969 the cost of computing dropped below that of communication, so packet switching became inevitable. Would advances in optical communication, now outpacing Moore's Law, soon make packet switching obsolete? Roberts doesn't think so.
--
So yes, is it not scary that a public figure who has committed such an egregious and bombastic error in public can, purely through the respect accorded their "position", have partisans out and about offering their apologia?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tusko, posted 04-08-2005 7:38 AM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Tusko, posted 04-11-2005 11:03 AM contracycle has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 58 (198449)
04-12-2005 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tusko
04-11-2005 11:03 AM


Re: Scary Manipulation
quote:
What intrigues me is that you are really certain that he didn't mean it the "sane" way. Is that because you believe him to be barking from his other actions, or is it purely because you believe the evidence to be so clear cut in this case that he could have meant nothing other than to be the designer and maker/programmer/whatever of the internet?
Well, I'm in the "clear cut" camp. To me, the claim was so patently absurd I really cannot explain why he made it. I can only assume that he was relying on his audience not knowing what he was talking about, and therefore expecting not to be contradicted.
As for this article, yes I think its entirely possible that this is essentially partisan politics. My challenge to Cirf and the defenders of Gore is to lay out exactly what contributions he is supposed to have made. They refer to these "initiatives" but of what do the "initiatives" consist? As mentioned previously, as far as I am aware the infratstructure spending was done under the auspices of the Department of Defence alone.
I mean, in what way does a technical invention need "promoting"? An actually useful technology does not need to be promoted, merely rolled out. This reeks of political doublespeak and IMO undermines Cirfs argument; if the only role they can credit Al Gore with having actually done is to express approval, then his critics are quite right to laugh at him and his claims. All Cirf and Khan have to say about these "initiatives" is that they were local talking shops within the US government about joined up departments... but how on earth does that parochial exercise have to do with the WORLD wide web, as it is now? The whole thing is absurd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tusko, posted 04-11-2005 11:03 AM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Tusko, posted 04-12-2005 6:44 AM contracycle has not replied

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