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Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Nobel Prize vs Proof that the Death Penalty MUST kill innocents | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
In another thread, a couple posters argued that use of the death penalty inherently means that innocent people will be killed. They argued that because if the justice system is a human made and run system, and humans are fallible, the system will eventually have to fail and so innocents will end up being wrongly convicted.
This is actually a collection of fallacies, self-servingly arranged. But I want to move away from that and concentrate on something else they said... no one can devise such a system, and if they can then they'll probably get a Nobel Prize. How the heck can I resist that? Well honestly it is the person who gets such a system enacted not simply thought of which would deserve the prize, but I'll run with the gag. Whereas most would seem excited to pursue such a challenge they actually used it as a reason for me not to proceed any further... hmmmmmmm. It gets me excited and I want to share the wealth. So let's go. It seems to me the following scenario would be a concrete situation where knowledge of a person's guilt is assured: A person is caught during the act of murder, or while trying to escape from the scene, with several direct witnesses, as well as concrete physical evidence tying him to the murder (weapon on him, evidence from scene on him, videotape of him at scene killing people), plus a confession from the person. Am I correct that this would be enough for us to be certain he is guilty and that there is no chance (beyond him setting himself up) he could be innocent? If so, if we created a system of evidentiary rules excluding the death penalty outside of cases with all of this evidence together, would we not have a system capable of executing only guilty parties? This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-12-2005 04:39 AM
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contracycle Inactive Member |
No that would not be enough. It could be a frame. Next!
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Ben! Member (Idle past 1429 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
Ever see Zoolander?
But seriously, shouldn't another criterion be "actually results in a single conviction" before you get the Nobel Prize? I think that might be important to the prize-awarding committee. Well, I think I'll step out of the way now. Just trying to join in the "fun."
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Holmes, I don't quite understand the focus of this topic. Are you advocating the right of the State to allow the Death Penalty in certain obvious situations? Lets frame a topic before running with this one. How about renaming this as:
Is the Death Penalty ever a good option? or perhaps Capital Punishment: Pros and Cons This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-12-2005 03:43 AM
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
I'll move it back to the coffeehouse once our topic starter has a definite focus. Man, you guys are quick!
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
How about renaming this as: Is the Death Penalty ever a good option? or perhaps Capital Punishment: Pros and Cons No those are both very broad subjects and my focus is extremely specific. It was claimed by two different posters that the existence of a death penalty in any judicial system MUST result in an innocent person being executed. That is to say there is absolutely no set of rules which can be made which would prevent innocent people from being executed. They also said that if one could come up with such a set of rules they'd likely get a Nobel Prize. I am riffing on that claim to draw people into a discussion of what system could elminate the possibility of innocent people ever getting the death sentence, though there might be one available in the system. To start with I have given an example case which I would hope is beyond dispute whether the person is guilty, in order to start crafting rules of evidence. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
No that would not be enough. It could be a frame. Next! The guy framed himself? holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
holmes writes: OK..lets roll with it.I renamed it, though.
It was claimed by two different posters that the existence of a death penalty in any judicial system MUST result in an innocent person being executed. That is to say there is absolutely no set of rules which can be made which would prevent innocent people from being executed. They also said that if one could come up with such a set of rules they'd likely get a Nobel Prize. I am riffing on that claim to draw people into a discussion of what system could elminate the possibility of innocent people ever getting the death sentence, though there might be one available in the system. To start with I have given an example case which I would hope is beyond dispute whether the person is guilty, in order to start crafting rules of evidence.
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
Why would the guy have to have framed himself? Confessions are notoriously unreliable.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: No the cops.
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Confessions are notoriously unreliable. Not undisputed confessions. I was not discussing cases where they have a "confession" which the accused now says was forced out of him or her. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
No the cops. Let me get this straight, the cops for some inexplicable reason decides to frame a person by creating an "event", planting witnesses at the event, as well as some photographic evidence with a double made before the event, somehow capturing him right there, or capturing the "double" and switching the real guy for him later... And then they get the guy to agree to their fake confession, even during the trial procedure? That is a plausible scenario to you? holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Monk Member (Idle past 3955 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: |
holmes writes: A person is caught during the act of murder, or while trying to escape from the scene, with several direct witnesses, as well as concrete physical evidence tying him to the murder (weapon on him, evidence from scene on him, videotape of him at scene killing people), plus a confession from the person. Am I correct that this would be enough for us to be certain he is guilty and that there is no chance (beyond him setting himself up) he could be innocent? No, it is not enough to ensure guilt. There would need to be a trial to determine sanity. Innocence by that reason is a possibility.
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