Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,907 Year: 4,164/9,624 Month: 1,035/974 Week: 362/286 Day: 5/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Can Natural Selection Produce Intelligent Design?
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4784 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 7 of 75 (233122)
08-14-2005 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
08-13-2005 12:16 PM


nwr writes:
There is some disagreement with the meaning of "intelligent", and often people associate intelligence with the use of logic. In my opinion, we should be associating intelligence with pragmatic judgement.
But there's nothing judging, thus there's no judgment.
Just as there's no intelligence involved when a gas expands to fill its container, there's no intelligence involved when life progresses towards its theoretical maximum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 08-13-2005 12:16 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by nwr, posted 08-14-2005 12:19 PM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4784 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 17 of 75 (233188)
08-14-2005 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by nwr
08-14-2005 12:19 PM


nwr writes:
For if you look at a single neuron, then on the same basis you would have to say that there is no judgement there either. And human decisions are merely the combined effect of all of those neurons. So the logical conclusion would seem to be that there is no judgement and no intelligence in people, either.
And a 2-input NAND gate must not be able to output a logic 0 iff both inputs are high, since the individual components can't perform that function.
http://www.opamp-electronics.com/...images/digital/04094.png
Oh wait, it does.
The circuit evaluates A+B. (1,1) has a value of 0. (1,0) has a value of 1. (0,1) has a value of 1. (0,0) has a value of 1.
I do a similar thing when I evaluate a logical argument, except I use a multiple-input gate, and stick an inverter on the output to make it an AND gate.
Iff the inference is valid, AND all the premises are true, the conclusion is true. If any other combination, the conclusion is at an indeterminate truth value.
The fact that an individual neuron can't perform this function doesn't mean that a group of them can't be hooked up to do it.
nwr writes:
I'm looking at judgement as the outcome of a process, rather than the decision of a conscious agent. I suppose this comes from my interest in artificial intelligence and cognitive science. I am wanting to be able to consider intelligence as arising from a community of simple judging processes.
Well yes, but the problem here is that you have no hardware. There's no judgment that one variant is a better fit to its environment than another; it simply is that one variant is better fit to its environment than another.
This message has been edited by DominionSeraph, 08-14-2005 05:41 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by nwr, posted 08-14-2005 12:19 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 08-14-2005 5:43 PM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4784 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 20 of 75 (233209)
08-14-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lmrenault
08-12-2005 10:51 AM


lmrenault writes:
But many of us would argue that this very sophisticated intelligent designer, unique on earth’s landscape, has been produced by the evolutionary process that Darwin describes. Can we make sense of this? Can such a super creation as Hs — an intelligent designer - be the product of mutation and natural selection where there is no intelligent design input?
I don't see why a trial-and-error process couldn't come up with a trial-and-error brain. Life, using a process that works really well at finding things that work really well, simply found its own process.
Seems to me that a configurable brain wouldn't be limited to literalty. An input could be segmented; the segments could then be shunted off along different paths, and then combined with other segments from other inputs to form concepts that aren't the result of a singular input. Thus, 'imagination'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lmrenault, posted 08-12-2005 10:51 AM lmrenault has not replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4784 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 21 of 75 (233212)
08-14-2005 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by nwr
08-14-2005 5:43 PM


nwr writes:
Likewise, I don't see any judgement in a multiple input gate, nor in the formal analysis of a logical argument.
If I'm not judging the conclusion to be either true or at an indeterminate truth value; what am I doing?
nwr writes:
When we ordinarily use logic in our reasoning, we don't restrict ourselves to a formal analysis.
In daily life, we seem to use a subconscious process that has access to a shitload of data. It might just be a difference engine.
nwr writes:
We also evaluate the assumed premises, and that is where I see us using judgement.
The input of one gate can be the output of another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 08-14-2005 5:43 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 08-14-2005 8:16 PM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4784 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 28 of 75 (233265)
08-14-2005 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by nwr
08-14-2005 8:16 PM


nwr writes:
Neither a NAND gate nor a multiple input logic gate will come up with an indeterminate truth value.
0 = 'indeterminate'
It's what the output signifies; not a reference to the output's level. It's a determination of 'indeterminate'.
nwr writes:
But the use of judgement is superfluous, for the decision can be reached mechanically, as by a NAND gate.
No, it would be superfluous to use an external AND gate, as I have an internal one that works just fine.
nwr writes:
Your judgement is not needed.
It is if I want to do anything with the conclusion. If I don't have that output, I'm right where I started.
nwr writes:
Whether the result was an error is an empirical judgement, but logic is abstract, so does not make empirical judgements.
That's fine, though. Incoming sensory data is simply flagged as true, so that doesn't have to be an output of the circuit. So, now we have a known good to check the output of other circuits against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 08-14-2005 8:16 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by nwr, posted 08-15-2005 12:01 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4784 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 32 of 75 (233273)
08-14-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by lmrenault
08-14-2005 10:18 PM


'Independent choice' is likely an illusion caused by the fact that your brain can't model itself at anything even approaching full complexity. Even constructing an extremely simplified model is problematic, as we can't see what it's doing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by lmrenault, posted 08-14-2005 10:18 PM lmrenault has not replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4784 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 34 of 75 (233306)
08-15-2005 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by nwr
08-15-2005 12:01 AM


nwr writes:
I think you are saying that, for a trial and error experiment, the sensor would report whether success or error, and the logic circuit would only have to deal with the signal from the sensor.
That's fine. But I would say that the sensor is exercising judgement in that case, while the logic circuit is still just doing a deterministic mechanical operation on its input.
I'm talking about an XOR gate comparing the sensor output to the logic circuit's output. If output of XOR = 1, the logic circuit hasn't sucessfully predicted the output of the sensor. Can then flag that circuit design as not working, and try another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by nwr, posted 08-15-2005 12:01 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by nwr, posted 08-15-2005 1:22 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4784 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 36 of 75 (233318)
08-15-2005 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by nwr
08-15-2005 1:22 AM


I'm talking about trial and error testing judgment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by nwr, posted 08-15-2005 1:22 AM nwr has not replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4784 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 37 of 75 (233319)
08-15-2005 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by nwr
08-15-2005 12:01 AM


nwr writes:
I'm perhaps not seeing your point there. Formal logic deals with form, not with what is signified. If there is a way to harness logic chips to deal with what is signified, rather than with the form (the output level), then how to do this has not yet been discovered.
You don't seem to have a problem with 0 signifying 'false'.
You want to see how it can signify 'indeterminate'? Have the low activate an alternate route. Thus, we have the proper behavior for when one method fails to give us an unusable answer -- try another method. (The low is usable -- just not usable to signify either true or false, as it doesn't.)
If all the premises are true but the inference invalid, the best alternative method would be to just use a valid inference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by nwr, posted 08-15-2005 12:01 AM nwr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by lmrenault, posted 08-15-2005 8:37 AM DominionSeraph has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024