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Author Topic:   Is mathematics a science?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 48 (239156)
08-31-2005 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Jack
08-30-2005 6:01 AM


Re: Math as a language
Maths is not a language. Language has no problem solving capability; maths does.
Math is simply a symbolic means by which statements comprised of symbols are either accepted or rejected, based on whether or not they can be constructed through a process of certain valid transformations from certain a priori axioms.
So it is a language; that is, a symbolic representation of information with grammar. Math has a very specific, rigid grammer, in fact. The grammar of math can be studied and operated with no recourse to the actual referents described by the symbols.
For instance, 2 + x = 4 can be solved for x without recourse to the actual meaning of any of those symbols; that's what makes computation possible. Your computer does math not because it knows what "2" or "+" mean but because it's been programmed with grammatical rules that tell it what transformations to apply to that string of symbols.
Unless those ideas are specifically about maths; no, you can't and even then you will struggle.
Not so. The very fact that you're sitting at a computer that does math proves that this isn't so, and in fact, is a pretty good indication that math is something different than science.
But to me it's pretty cut-and-dry. Mathematical knowledge is supported deductively; scientific knowledge is supported inductively. Two different worlds.
Math is not science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dr Jack, posted 08-30-2005 6:01 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by nwr, posted 09-01-2005 12:47 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 13 by Dr Jack, posted 09-01-2005 6:02 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 48 (239491)
09-01-2005 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Jack
09-01-2005 6:02 AM


Re: Math as a language
What computers acheive is done through boolean logical operations, not mathematics.
Symbolic logic is mathematics. Mathematics, as I'm sure you must know, is more than just number theory. Boolean algebra could be considered basic mathematics restricted to the "values" 0 and 1.
Even the name "boolean" comes from George Boole, the mathematician who invented what he called "the calculus of logic." Logic (formal logic, at least) and math are the same thing, a connection that has been make starkly clear by the work of mathematicians like Russel and Godel, and others.
The meaning you perceive is there, not because it is communicated by mathematics but because it is constructed as a visual image that you understand; whether through visual or textual means.
Which is pretty much what I said. Mathematics is a language with a strict grammar - so strict that it ensures that properly-formed utterances (defined in math as "derived, via valid transformations, from accepted axioms") will be meaningful, even though they can be formed via the grammar without reference to their meaning.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 48 (239905)
09-02-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by nwr
09-01-2005 6:04 PM


But why should we start with Zermelo-Frankel? Surely those are not encoded in our genes.
No, they're not. Isn't that sort of the fatal flaw in mathematical platonism? That the axiomatic conditions that mathematical reasoning depends on are ultimately arbitrary? Not to be uncharitable to math platonists but their position seems to be based more on a need for their work not to simply be logic puzzles and symbol games rather than an actual "math" that exists somewhere in the universe.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Chiroptera, posted 09-02-2005 11:03 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 33 by cavediver, posted 09-02-2005 11:38 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 48 (240307)
09-03-2005 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Chiroptera
09-02-2005 1:17 PM


Everytime I read the news, I feel like I'm in a film noir.
Well, maybe your problem is the way you read the news by having someone toss spinning newspapers right at your face:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Chiroptera, posted 09-02-2005 1:17 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Brad McFall, posted 09-05-2005 8:23 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 47 of 48 (240674)
09-05-2005 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Brad McFall
09-05-2005 8:23 AM


Re: to speak a langugage or not, is that a question?
I appreciate you taking the time to reply to me specifically but, as usual, I didn't understand a word of what you said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Brad McFall, posted 09-05-2005 8:23 AM Brad McFall has not replied

  
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