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Author Topic:   Mercury's Magnetic Field
Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 18 of 42 (248660)
10-03-2005 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by christ_fanatic
10-03-2005 5:07 PM


Re: Okay.
Sorry, but Humphreys seems to be a bit of a Kook.
at the instant God created the water molecules, the spins of the hydrogen nuclei were all pointing in a particular direction. By the ordinary laws of physics, the spins of the nuclei would lose their alignment within seconds, but the large magnetic field would preserve itself by causing an electric current to circulate in the interior of each planet. By the same laws, the currents and fields would preserve themselves with only minor losses, as God rapidly transformed the water into other materials. After that, the currents and fields would decay due to electrical resistance.
He supplies no evidence for any of this. He essentially says in this article, "I said this back in 1984 and you'll just have to believe me on it." He provides no model parameters. This is "Goddidit" in its purest form. Also, Humphreys doesn't address magnetic field reversals which have been observed on Earth:
Geomagnetic reversal - Wikipedia
How is this reconcilable with Humphrey's model? How could the Earth's magnetic field flip 1,000-10,000 if the Earth is only 6,000 years old? If it isn't that's a huge problem with his model.
Mercury's magnetic field is well in line with its density (almost the same as the Earth) which implies that it has a significant metal core. When a (partially molten) metal core rotates, it generates a magnetic field. This is not the same as the magnets you have on your refridgerator.

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Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 19 of 42 (248662)
10-03-2005 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
10-03-2005 5:51 PM


Re: Okay.
Since I have my space science book on hand:
Planet- Density (kg/m3)
Mercury- 5430
Venus- 5240
Earth- 5515
Mars- 3940
(Comins and Kaufmann, Discovering the Universe, 2005, Freeman press)

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Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 21 of 42 (248664)
10-03-2005 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
10-03-2005 5:59 PM


Re: Okay.
Yup, both gas giants have a magnetic field, and pretty strong ones at that. It's largely due to the huge volume of metallic hydrogen deep beneath their surfaces. Metallic hydrogen is an interesting consequence of hydrodynamic equilibrium at the pressures found deep in these planets- essentially the pressure is so great that hydrogen's electron clouds are shared, just like they are in a metal. And since both planets are strongly rotating, that produces the large magnetic field of both planets.
Oh! The densities of the gas giants-
Jupiter- 1330
Saturn- 700
Uranus- 1300
Neptune- 1760
This message has been edited by Matt P, 10-03-2005 06:04 PM

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Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 23 of 42 (248668)
10-03-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
10-03-2005 6:07 PM


Density, composition, and rotation
Correct. Density is important when constrained by composition. The gas giants have metallic fields because they are so massive that the pressure is high enough to force electron cloud sharing of things that ordinarily wouldn't share electrons (H, He, CH4, H2O).
However, the rocky planets have significant metal cores which encourages a magnetic field. Mars doesn't have much of a magnetic field since its density is so low- its core must not be completely metal, or really small.
The final factor is rotation- Venus rotates very slowly, so it has a very weak magnetic field, and the same is true of Mercury.

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 Message 24 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 6:21 PM Matt P has replied
 Message 29 by Coragyps, posted 10-03-2005 8:32 PM Matt P has replied

  
Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 27 of 42 (248677)
10-03-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
10-03-2005 6:21 PM


Re: Density, composition, and rotation
Frankly I'm not familiar with the origin of the giant planet's magnetic fields. I think the info is sketchy, since we've only looked at it from Voyager 2. Looking it up shows way too much magnetohydrodynamics for my taste. However, the general theme is that the means through which these fields are generated are fundamentally different.
Here are a few references:
INTRINSIC MAGNETIC-FIELDS OF THE PLANETS - MERCURY TO NEPTUNE
NESS NF
PHILOSOPHICAL TRANSACTIONS OF THE ROYAL SOCIETY OF LONDON SERIES A-MATHEMATICAL PHYSICAL AND ENGINEERING SCIENCES 349 (1690): 249-260 NOV 15 1994
Abstract: In the past three decades, studies of the magnetic fields of Earth's Moon and all the planets, except for Pluto, have been conducted by spacecraft of the U.S.A. and of Venus and Mars by the former U.S.S.R. Among the terrestrial planets, only Mercury (Mariner 10: 1974 and 1975) is globally magnetized while the Moon and Venus are unmagnetized. The situation at Mars is still unclear, but if any global field exists, it is quite small. In 1979, Pioneer 11 discovered a magnetic field and radiation belt at Saturn, further elaborated on by Voyagers 1 (1980) and 2 (1981). Pioneers 10 (1974) and 11 (1975) and Voyagers 1 (1979) and 2 (1979) examined in detail the magnetic field of Jupiter, which had been inferred initially and studied remotely due to its non-thermal radio emissions in the late 1950s. Jupiter's magnetic field is much stronger than Earth's and distinctly nondipolar close to the planet. Saturn has a much weaker field than Jupiter, and it is surprisingly axisymmetric (to degree n = 3) with respect to its rotation axis. The Voyager fly-bys of Uranus and Neptune in 1986 and 1989 discovered global magnetic fields and trapped energetic particle radiation belts. Both Uranus and Neptune display remarkably similar magnetic fields (quite different from Jupiter, Saturn and Earth). In an astrophysical sense, Uranus and Neptune are described as oblique rotators because of the large angular offset of their magnetic axes from their rotation axes (59 degrees and 47 degrees). Additionally, their magnetic 'centres' are displaced by substantial fractions of a planetary radius (0.31 R(U) and 0.55 R(N)) This paper summarizes our present knowledge of the quantitative characteristics of the magnetic fields of these planets.
MAGNETIC-FIELDS OF THE OUTER PLANETS
CONNERNEY JEP
JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH-PLANETS 98 (E10): 18659-18679 OCT 25 1993
Abstract: It is difficult to imagine a group of planetary dynamos more diverse than those visited by the Pioneer and Voyager spacecraft. The magnetic field of Jupiter is large in magnitude and has a dipole axis within 10-degrees of its rotation axis, comfortably consistent with the paleomagnetic history of the geodynamo. Saturn's remarkable (zonal harmonic) magnetic field has an axis of symmetry that is indistinguishable from its rotation axis (<< 1-degrees angular separation); it is also highly antisymmetric with respect to the equator plane, According to one hypothesis, the spin symmetry may arise from the differential rotation of an electrically conducting and stably stratified layer above the dynamo. The magnetic fields of Uranus and Neptune are very much alike, and equally unlike those of the other known magnetized planets. These two planets are characterized by a large dipole tilts (59-degrees and 47-degrees, respectively) and quadrupole moments (Schmidt-normalized quadrupole/dipole ratio almost-equal-to 1.0). These properties may be characteristic of dynamo generation in the relatively poorly conducting ''ice'' interiors of Uranus and Neptune. Characteristics of these planetary magnetic fields are illustrated using contour maps of the field on the planet's surface and discussed in the context of planetary interiors and dynamo generation.
Sorry to say, but ugh. It's easy to see how a charlatan can slip into this field.

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Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 28 of 42 (248678)
10-03-2005 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by gene90
10-03-2005 6:37 PM


Re: Okay.
Good point. I don't think it is able to flip in Humphrey's model.

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Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 30 of 42 (248870)
10-04-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Coragyps
10-03-2005 8:32 PM


Re: Density, composition, and rotation
Let's see. The (simplified) diffusion equation is:
dT/dt = k d^2 T / dz^2
where T is temperature, t is time, and z is the size of the body (not spherical, but it's a good guess). k is the diffusivity, and for a rock/metal mixture, one might expect it to be on the order of 10^-3 to 10^-4 with SI units. Rock alone is 10^-6, but metal is much more conductive. So to an order of magnitude:
t = z^2 / k
With the Martian radius as 3380 km, this would give a lifetime of about 1e9 years. Naturally this is an oversimplification- I've excluded radioactivity, temperature dependence of k, and I've also excluded accretional heating. But it's in line with what we might expect from the remnant magnetism.

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Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 32 of 42 (248874)
10-04-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
10-04-2005 2:19 PM


Re: Density, composition, and rotation
No, not really, as far as I know. I think that given what we now know about composition, mass, radius, and rotation rate, most everything seems to fall in place. That's probably an oversimplification, but it's not unreasonable.

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Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 34 of 42 (248951)
10-04-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NosyNed
10-04-2005 7:09 PM


Re: falling into place
As far as I know, no. Mercury is very dense, with a sizable iron core and likely a hot center, perfect for a magnetic field.
The details aren't clear, especially with regards to its slow rotation rate, but that's part of the reason for the upcoming Messenger mission. The Mariner mission didn't really cut it as far as giving us all the details.

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Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 36 of 42 (249121)
10-05-2005 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NosyNed
10-04-2005 7:45 PM


Exclamation points in scientific papers are bad.
Hi Ned,
Some are wrong, some are duplicitous. AiG’s main points are 1) the models of the solar nebula do not predict a dense Mercury. 2) That a magnetic field generated by a dynamo on Mercury requires a partially molten core, and Mercury shouldn’t have one. And 3) that a molten core would require sulfur, which should not be present on Mercury.
Point 1).
As usual AiG has a flair for exaggeration:
Mercury is so dense that it’s thought to have an iron core occupying some 75% of its diameter.1 This extraordinary density has generated much turmoil and confusion in evolutionary astronomy. Evolutionists mostly agree on models of planetary formation . but their models say Mercury can’t be anywhere near as dense as it actually is.
is completely out there. Planetary scientists have no real problem with Mercury's composition and density, and spectroscopic studies are consistent with standard planetary formation models. Sprague et al. (1994) detected basalt and anorthosite, and Vilas (1988) detected Fe silicates. Both detections are consistent with a refractory, high temperature location for the origin of this world. The only thing at all surprising with Mercury is its high metal:silicate ratio. There is discussion on how this came to be (namely through a catastrophic impact, see Cameron et al. 1988), but discussion does not mean that the theory is on the brink of collapse:
Only that Mercury would otherwise disprove evolution!
Answers in Genesis has a problem with geologists using catastrophes to explain the origin of things, whether the geologists are terrestrial or planetary. They seem to feel that all modern science believes in perfect uniformitarianism.
Point 2).
With regards to Mercury's magnetic field, AiG makes it seem as though since Mercury has a magnetic field, it must be young. They make this point on the fact that Mercury is too small to remain hot enough to keep a liquid core:
But as one evolutionist says, ”Mercury is so small that the general opinion is that the planet [i.e. its core] should have frozen solid aeons ago’.5 Therefore, the core cannot be molten, and so evolutionary theories would have to conclude that Mercury cannot have a magnetic field. But it does!
Aside from the normal anti-science tactics used (one evolutionist says something that may be construed as doubt, so the whole theory must be wrong!), this neglects major sources of heat- the sun, solar magnetism, radioactivity. Radioactivity may be especially important for Mercury, mainly because a lot of radioactive elements are refractory. Additionally, it neglects chemistry, which leads to point 3).
Point 3).
AiG states
A fundamental principle of the solar nebula theory (used to explain how our solar system formed) is that there cannot be any volatile elements such as sulfur this close to the sun, and so there shouldn’t be any iron sulfide in Mercury.
This is pretty much a gross misrepresentation. The Solar Nebula was likely somewhere between strictly homogenous and strictly heterogeneous (the Earth has plenty of volatiles like water due to late stage accretion). They raise a decent point about iron sulfide, but they omit any reference to any other types of sulfides or any sort of late stage gain of sulfide material. In a less oxygen rich system, high temperature sulfides form (CaS and MgS), which could add a fair bit of sulfur to the planet (see Pasek et al. 2005). Pasek et al. (2005) also suggest that the solar nebula definitely evolved to this less oxygen rich system through diffusion of water to the snow line, hence this possibility is viable. Add to that the possible detection of sulfide at the pole of Mercury (Sprague et al. 1995), and there's no reason to say that sulfur didn't make it to Mercury. Sulfur would definitely enable a long-term dynamo, especially when coupled to the external sources of heat and magnetism. Migration of material through the Solar Nebula has been known for well over 20-30 years, so there’s no excuse for AiG not recognizing this.
Refs:
Cameron, A.G.W., Fegley, B., Jr., Benz, W., and Slattery, W.L., 1988, in Mercury, University of Arizona Press, Tucson, pp. 692-708.
Pasek, M.A., Milsom, J.A., Ciesla, F.J., Lauretta, D.S., Sharp, C.M., and Lunine, J.I. 2005, Icarus 175, 1-14.
Sprague, A.L., Hunten, D.M., and Lodders, K., 1995, Icarus 118, 211-215.
Sprague, A.L., Kozlowski, R.W.H., Witteborn, F.C., Cruikshank, D.P., and Wooden, D.H., 1994, Icarus 109, 156-167.
Vilas, F. 1988, in Mercury, University of Arizona Press, Tucson, pp 59-76.

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 Message 39 by roxrkool, posted 10-06-2005 11:44 AM Matt P has replied

  
Matt P
Member (Idle past 4806 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 40 of 42 (249837)
10-07-2005 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by roxrkool
10-06-2005 11:44 AM


Thank you!
AiG also seems to have problems with Saturn's rings, Io, Mars, comets, and pretty much the rest of modern science.
However, those subjects are best reserved for another topic altogether.

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