Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? Part II

ah well...meh -- don't worry about it then.Jar, like I said before, a moderator might as well close off this thread. I don't think it's going anywhere now.
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Sure. What do you want me to clarify?I guess the basic idea that I was trying to get across is that the idea of God being determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence seems to be a logical fallacy to some extent. I think everyone who believes in God also believes that God revealed himself to them in some way or another -- whether by the Scriptures, or personal experience, or even by nature itself.In short, if God didn't reveal himself in any way at all (and if he is indeed outside all human experience), then we wouldn't even know he existed in the first place. As such, it would seem to me to be an exceptionally bizarre and cruel thing for him to damn someone for not believing in him -- especially if he were indeed "hiding" so as to generate "faith" in himself.The whole position makes no sense to me.

Go tell that to the thousands that saw her there -- some using spotlights by the way. This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 02:28 AM

Then maybe you should backtrack and read through this thread... My Invitation -- Enjoy... ...then, after you've read through it, please come back and explain to me what support about this fine idea you don't agree with. Typical assertion?That's a very strange assertion you've made -- especially since, at least according to the Christian Scriptures, God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth -- and yet, again according to the Christian Scriptures, some will have their whole body to be thrown into hell.I'm fairly sure that the people going to hell are the ones who are not saved. Right?Apparently God doesn't always gets what he wants now does he?Anyway, I invite you to read through the previous thread linked above and comment in this current thread as you see fit. Please remember, however, that this isn't a question about the valdity of the evidence presented. This is a question about God being determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence or not. It assumes that people's various religious perspectives, even those outside the Judeo-Christian-Muslim faiths, have something positive to contribute to this question.m'kay? Edit: clarified various points.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 09:49 AM

In your opinion, of course.But, then again, your'e still waiting for God to light your candle, right?How's that going anyway?Anyway, let's get to your points below: I'm glad you added the part about this being your opinion. Ok...so..um...how do you know that his existence would be known to all people and by all means of substantiation -- or is this just more speculation? You're right about the part that we can speculate on (the intent), but you've yet to provide (or speculate) on any reason why God would be determined not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith. I've read nothing in the Christian Scriptures which indicate that God is conceiling himself so that he might generate a desire in others to seek him out.Nothing.Could you point these passages out to me please?In regards to tradition, could you quote me the people who held this position?Again, we've gone back and forth on this many times -- and yet you've not quoted one source to back up this tradition.Not one source. Again, this is your opinion -- which is fine.But why do you think that the lack of scientifically substantiated evidence of his existence would support the idea that God is determined not to allow evidence of his existence to be known to anyone today?Is it because God will not light your candle?Note: purpledawn, I apologize if I sound mean-spirited or sarcastic. It's just that we've been over this a lot in that thread. I explained many things in detail. You've presented your side as well -- although your response was not very understandable in my opinion.I don't know what else to say. We seem to be talking past each other.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 01:45 PM

Yes, but you were talking about me -- that's why I'm responding to you and not DominionSeraph. It is a battle purpledawn. If someone's making claims about God, and I sincerely believe those claims are severely wrong, then I feel a duty to respond in the appropriate measure.I think that people making the claim that God is determined to hide himself in order to generate faith is a rather dangerous claim to make.The theological implications behind it basically render God as being not much different from a card shark that forces you to play a game with him -- without telling you the rules how to play (won't even let you see your own hand for that matter) -- and then mercilessly snuffs out your miserable soul because you lost the game against him.~yay!~It's a fairly cruel image of God being presented when someone claims that he is determined to hide himself in order to generate faith.Think about it. Exactly. Just like I'm giving my opinion on the matter. True. For the sake of this discussion, we are assuming that some God (or gods) exist. Again true -- but this also leads into the question of whether God is really hiding at all -- or whether we simply can't see him -- or whether some people can see him and some cannot -- or the question of whether all should be able to see him. Nope.I'm just making sure that everyone who reads this thread realizes that the views you've expressed are your opinions -- just like the views I've expressed are my opinions.That's all. Look. The point that I'm trying to get across is that, according to the Scriptures, there was a time when God appeared quite blatently in a pillar of fire and a cloud -- and actually led the Israelites in a way that was so visible that no one who "saw" it could deny that God was there.Even still, many didn't believe in him. Raw evidence of God's existence does not guarantee belief in him. If this is so, then I see no reason why he would hide in order to generate faith -- since that would simply make belief in him that much harder.Do you understand what I'm saying?If raw evidence of his existence does not guarantee belief in him, then why on earth would he, an apparently all-loving God, chose to make things all the more difficult by hiding from those he loves?I'm sorry. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And, as I've tried to point out several times, I don't think that those who do hold this view have really thought it through well enough.In fact, I'm quite sure that this position is more like am intellectual brain-fart that many are probably going to regret holding when they come face to face with their maker -- in my opinion of course. I have read your posts purpledawn. See the card shark analogy above. Well, to be clear, there are definitely passages which talk about God hiding. But, for the record, I've seen nothing about him hiding himself so that he might generate a desire in others to seek him out. And you're still waiting for God to light a candle for you? Apparently not, since...well...y'know...the candle...and Dick Clark and all that... Whoa, whoa, whoa...I've never said that God doesn't hide himself. I've even suggested some reasons, in my opinion, why God might really hide.One of these reasons, if I recall correctly, was the possibility of God destroying men by his presence -- and that he might hide in order to protect us from his own awesome presence.Another of those reasons, in my opinion, is that God hides his face when people sin -- or that God simply cannot look upon the face of sin.Yet, in another area, I think that God might hide his intentions so that perverse evil people do not distort the knowedge he has to offer about himself or his will -- again, in my opinion. Well..how about we look for passages which actually discuss why God might himself (or his intentions for that matter).For example, there's this: Why would God want to hide this information from Abraham?Another passage of Scripture says the following: Here's another one: Job 13:24 asks, "Why do you hide your face and consider me your enemy?"Psalm 10:1 asks, "Why, O LORD, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?"Another passage says: Psalm 44:24 asks. "Why do you hide your face and forget our misery and oppression?"Psalm 104:29 goes so far as to state, "When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust."I could also point to Psalm 88:14, Psalm 89:46, Psalm 102:2, Psalm 102:2, Psalm 143:7, or even Micah 3:4 which states, "Then they will cry out to the LORD, but he will not answer them. At that time he will hide his face from them because of the evil they have done."Look, I've just looked through the passage which talk about God hiding. First of all, I think they're using the idea of God hiding as a metaphor for humanity being in big trouble. Second of all, not once does it mention the idea of God hiding so as to generate a desire in others to seek him out. Game of cards anyone?Bwa haaa haaa haaaa haaaaaaaaah! Was St. Mary's church a Catholic church?Um....Pascal wasn't too keen on organized religion, being a fore-runner to deism and all. He was specifically protesting the works of Catholic Scholastics, such as the writings of St. Aquinas if I recall correctly. Since he did reject some premises of the Christian concept of divine revelation, of course he's going to say something like this. Agreed. I never said he didn't No. If the Scriptures themselves are fair game for determining the purpose for God hiding, then Chassidut and Pascal are fairly well blowing chunks. Basd on the passages I've read, I don't think it is. That's ok. I don't think Chassidut or Pascal thought about it too hard either -- at least, not based on their own Scriptures anyway. Ok, fair enough -- the idea is out there (waaaayyy out there in my opinion). But the idea is out there. How do you suggest I do that? Isn't this just all speculation? Apparently the Scriptures are not high on your reading list. I have read what you wrote.You're the one claiming to have done extensive religious studies for 40 years -- and you've never ever come across these passages of Scripture which actually really do talk about the reasons why God hides? And yet, with sweeping elegence, you totally ignored what the Scriptures themselves have to say about why God hides.*sigh* No. I need to stop wasting my time trying to explain this to you.Enjoy your candle.

pft-Yeah sure -- and please continue to ignore every scrap of Scriptural reasons why God hides while you're at it. Yeah...the beautiful purple candle that will never ever spontaniously light for you.Never.To be fair I have to ask if you are suffering any physical disabilities that prevent you from actually lighting the candle yourself?If so, has a friend ever offered to light the candle for you?If I were there I'd do it for you.See, God will never do something for you that you can accomplish on your own -- especially if you've been given the ability by God himself to accomplish it on your own.And oftentimes he does send people our way to accomplish the prayers that we have petitioned to him.I'm fairly sure that you've heard some variation of this story before, but her goes nothing.... You sitting there and asking God to miraculously light a candle for you is foolish in light of the very real possibility that you are fully capable of lighting it on your own.The day that you actually attempt to someway light the candle so that you can give praise to the God who has given you the desire to do so is the day that you will finally understand that God's Spirit has moved you to do so.The Scriptures do not say, "God helps those who help themselves." But they do say, "Draw close to me and I will draw close to you." I don't think there's much difference between these two statements in my opinion. And may God bless you in your search purpledawn.

I think we're actually starting to understand each other better. And you don't think your request for confirmation is a more spectacular solution from God? Confirmation is salvation. It does if you believe it does. The confirmation is in your heart and you don't need to prove anything to anyone.I thought after 40 years of Christianity under your belt you would understand these elementary basics of the faith. Yes, I know the story. Unfortuntately I think your request is not likened to Gideon's request. In my opinion it is actually more akin to the adversary's requests for Christ to turn stones into bread and later throw himself from the highest place in order to demonstrate that God would save him.Would you like me to explain why I think your request is more similar to the adversary's request than Gideon's request? If I'm understanding the Scriptures properly, apparently God might consider your request to be unreasonable.Let me ask you a simple question: Do you honestly believe your beautiful purple candle will light spontaniously by God's will?

...and not one of them who witnessed the miracle actually doubted that God existed before the miracle actually happened, did they?Conversely, do you think that any of the Israelites could've parted the red sea by their own power without God? Is this a reference to the burning bush observed by Moses -- or is this the story of Elijah against the prophets of Baal?If not, I'm not immediately familiar with whatever miracle you've pointed out here.Regardless, I'm fairly sure whoever witnessed the miracle never actually doubted that God existed before the miracle actually happened, didn't they?Even in the case of Elijah, the Israelites mostly believed in both God and Baal -- and Elijah's call before God was to determine who was the true God between the two of them.Again, conversely, do you think that any of the Israelites could've caused the wet wood to burn by their own power without God? ...and Gideon never actually doubted that God existed before the miracle -- actually, two of them -- actually happened, did he?Again, conversely, do you think that Gideon could've directed the dew by his own power without God? Maybe so for someone who already believes. But you don't actually believe in God, do you?See the diference?You are...1) ...asking something that you don't actually believe in to...2) ...do something for you that you are fully capable of doing yourself.In all the above cases, the witnesses of the miracles were apparently observing events that they themselves could never accomplish on their own -- and they already believed in God before they asked God to intervene.In your scenario, you are observing an event that you can easilly accomplish on your own -- and, unlike all the above cases, you don't actually believe in God anyway.In other words, it seems as though you've got it all back-assward. No. It's actually a well-constructed yet subtle form of mental idolatry. Whether you realize it or not, you are effectively worshipping your beautiful unlit purple candle far more than you are worshipping God. I've got news for you purpledawn -- if you're looking for proof in the most strict and empirical sense of the word, then a candle spontaniously lighting in no way confirms one's salvation.The only thing it will do is bolster your own belief that what you "already" believe is reasonbly true. The true test, however, is when we actually pass away and find where our final destination is -- something which we could actually find to be radically different than what we "believed" would happen.So, getting back to your point, if you're going to splice words by noting that confirmation is something that proves the truth or validity of something, then I have to ask you how you can validate that you will indeed be rescued based on the spontanious ignition of this candle?The only thing that can be reasonably said is that the ignition of the candle will personally validate what you've already sought to believe -- but not on a "scientific level". It will only enable you to continue to believe (to trust that God is active) until the day you die. When you stop the hair-splitting, I think you'll actually realize that confirmation is salvation, because the confirmation of the event is what enables you to believe in your salvation. And yet you apparently still do not understand the differences between what you're reading in the Scriptures and what you're requesting from God. You make this distinction here, and yet you don't see the differences that I noted above?Let me put it another way: The adversary knew that God existed -- but he certainly didn't trust God for his salvation, agreed?Bearing this in mind, do you trust in God for your salvation before or after you ask God to do something?Think about what I'm saying here: Do you even trust in God for your salvation at all? In addition to the ones about the adversary tempting Christ, I'll now also note the "miracles" you noted above. You're undermining the question I asked by placing the qualifier "if the Christian God exists, has the powers that are attributed to him and wants people to know that he exists..." -- but that's not what I asked is it?My simple question is still the following: Do you honestly believe your beautiful purple candle will light spontaniously by God's will, yes or no?Hebrews 11:6 quite plainly states that without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.How exactly can God respond if you don't actually have faith in him?
__________________Note: I've simplified some of my points to reduce the amount I usually type (which is embarrasingly long). If you request, I will explain them more in depth to clarify any points that are at all confusing to you.Edit: added various points to clarify position as simply as posible.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-09-2005 08:58 PM

Then why are you treating it like one?I know your candle is not a deity -- and yet you place the spontanious ignition of the candle as a pre-requisite prior to believing that God exists, effectively focusing your attention on the candle more than God.In my opinion, idolatry can be subtle -- and I'm not trying to single you out by saying that I think you are engaging in some form of it. I'm fairly sure I engage in it whenever I place my trust in something -- such as money, technology, or other people -- more than I place my faith in God.It also seems to me that Christians like myself can be caught up in other subtle forms of mental idolatries -- such as denominationalism, biblical literalism, philosophy, etc.Like I said before, I personally do know that the candle is not a deity -- that's why I said that I thought it was well-constructed yet subtle form of "mental idolatry". Your faith in God depends on the candle -- and since the candle will never, ever light spontaniously, you've effectively trapped yourself into a position of unbelief -- a position which is exactly the alternative position you had before you concocted this test.It is my belief that humanities default belief is that of deism. Yes, and you don't really need God to light your candle either, do you? Nice complex question there purpledawn. The answer is neither.Here...let me break it down for you appropiately in two stages based on the pre-selected possibilities you've given in the question above. No.I've repeatedly said that I believe there are already plenty of reasons to believe God exists -- so much so that since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities ”- his eternal power and divine nature ”- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. No.He's revealing himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak.Those that listen and respond appropriately to what he has to say are those that he continues to talk with -- just like in real life we would tend to continue to talk with people who really listen to us and would tend to eventually walk away from those who ignore us to some extent.When God talks to us, I'm not necessarilly talking about a booming audible voice so much so that thunder voices his obliterated speech -- although this apparently does happen in rare circumstances. I'm talking more about the experience that we do not know what we ought to pray for, but that the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.In a sense, since all people are God's children regardless of what they believe, we speak inwardly to God much like a new-born cooing, crying, or giggling in the presence of the Holy Spirit (and, as a side note, I think this is what people experience when they authentically speak in tongues -- baby talk in the language of God). Admitedly, as each indiviual grows and is shaped by the culture they emerge from, each individual reaches a certain maturity level within which God responds -- with some cultures being more receptive to God's will while other cultures eventually becoming virtually closed to God's still-small voice over time.God, as a father, listens intently to these things and knows the maturity level within which each individual is capable of handling -- and the reward comes to those who continue to listen to what God asks in proportion to the level of maturity they have developed in him.Christ, as mediator, ensures that Christians, much like those who are more mature, hear his word more clearly -- but that does not mean that non-Christians, much like the younger children, are not capable of doing what the Spirit moves them to do. It also doesn't necessarilly mean that Christians do God's will either, although we certainly believe that we know what his will is.This is how I understand the Scriptures anyway.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-10-2005 12:06 AM

Are you trolling me again Legend?It's not that I don't have a sense of humour, but your response seems to indicate you haven't read ahead through the rest of my post.

No, you didn't.If you had believed that God, as Christianity presented him, existed, then you wouldn't have been asking for him to light a candle in order to prove he existed, now would you?Does anyone else not understand what I'm saying here -- how one claim to believe God exists and then ask God to light a candle in order to prove that he really exists?

I can point these things out in the Scriptures, but I'm fairly sure you won't accept that. Actualy, I don't. I think we make ourselves that way. Legend, I've already explained what I mean -- and I've explained it from both church history and the scriptures. If you don't believe what I've explained then there's not much else I can say.It's not like people always need confirmation that their actions will result in the desired end.For example, many people attempt to court someone and they face the possibility of rejection. Yet their desire to find love over-rides their fear of rejection. They have no guarantee that their actions will result in love -- yet their advances can also just a likely result in a choice which can affect the rest of their lives -- whether positive or negative. You've never went to do something wrong and then, because your conscience told you it was wrong, decided not to do the action?

No kidding? Then perhaps you should have stayed that way. I'm not trying to be mean. However, I think you actually went against your own conscience in relenting to their requests. Uh...no.It could also mean that there is sufficient evidence to understand this on your own without God lighting a candle. It could also mean that God's grace is sufficient to carry your through whatever doubts you might have. If you're refering to all the tenets of all the various Christian denominations -- which do quite often contradict themselves -- then I can tell you personally that, in my own opinion, they are not all true.You don't need a candle lighting, however, to tell you that.Which denomination did you go to by the way -- or did you go to an eclectic mix of denominations?

Since I notice that you're not really answering my questions, I'll just note that you probably weren't ready to study the Scriptures.Yes, the adversary often does quote Scripture out of context in order to confuse. Since you've now rejected Christianity in toto by demanding that God light your candle for you in order to resolve your confusion, I guess I'll just conclude that the adversary did play some part in your biblical confusion.But, in saying this, I'm not suggesting that you are to blame for this. It seems more reasonable to me to note that those who were teaching you while contradicting themselves and forcing you into faith (in order to meet their quota much like salesmen) will possibly be most likely held responsible.Ultimately, however, if you were suppposed to follow the path of Christianity based on the books that were sold to you, only God can say for sure if you had the competence to see if the teachings presented to you were right or wrong. I don't know what they were taching you. However, you seem like a smart woman so I find it hard to believe that you couldn't understand some of these things simply by listening to God's Spirit.Either way you look at it, God's not going to light your candle for you. You can do it on your own when you're moved by God's Spirit to do so. I guess you may as well get used to sitting in the darkness. Sometime, when I have chance in private prayer, I'll light a candle for you and hope for the best.