Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? Part II

...and not one of them who witnessed the miracle actually doubted that God existed before the miracle actually happened, did they?Conversely, do you think that any of the Israelites could've parted the red sea by their own power without God? Is this a reference to the burning bush observed by Moses -- or is this the story of Elijah against the prophets of Baal?If not, I'm not immediately familiar with whatever miracle you've pointed out here.Regardless, I'm fairly sure whoever witnessed the miracle never actually doubted that God existed before the miracle actually happened, didn't they?Even in the case of Elijah, the Israelites mostly believed in both God and Baal -- and Elijah's call before God was to determine who was the true God between the two of them.Again, conversely, do you think that any of the Israelites could've caused the wet wood to burn by their own power without God? ...and Gideon never actually doubted that God existed before the miracle -- actually, two of them -- actually happened, did he?Again, conversely, do you think that Gideon could've directed the dew by his own power without God? Maybe so for someone who already believes. But you don't actually believe in God, do you?See the diference?You are...1) ...asking something that you don't actually believe in to...2) ...do something for you that you are fully capable of doing yourself.In all the above cases, the witnesses of the miracles were apparently observing events that they themselves could never accomplish on their own -- and they already believed in God before they asked God to intervene.In your scenario, you are observing an event that you can easilly accomplish on your own -- and, unlike all the above cases, you don't actually believe in God anyway.In other words, it seems as though you've got it all back-assward. No. It's actually a well-constructed yet subtle form of mental idolatry. Whether you realize it or not, you are effectively worshipping your beautiful unlit purple candle far more than you are worshipping God. I've got news for you purpledawn -- if you're looking for proof in the most strict and empirical sense of the word, then a candle spontaniously lighting in no way confirms one's salvation.The only thing it will do is bolster your own belief that what you "already" believe is reasonbly true. The true test, however, is when we actually pass away and find where our final destination is -- something which we could actually find to be radically different than what we "believed" would happen.So, getting back to your point, if you're going to splice words by noting that confirmation is something that proves the truth or validity of something, then I have to ask you how you can validate that you will indeed be rescued based on the spontanious ignition of this candle?The only thing that can be reasonably said is that the ignition of the candle will personally validate what you've already sought to believe -- but not on a "scientific level". It will only enable you to continue to believe (to trust that God is active) until the day you die. When you stop the hair-splitting, I think you'll actually realize that confirmation is salvation, because the confirmation of the event is what enables you to believe in your salvation. And yet you apparently still do not understand the differences between what you're reading in the Scriptures and what you're requesting from God. You make this distinction here, and yet you don't see the differences that I noted above?Let me put it another way: The adversary knew that God existed -- but he certainly didn't trust God for his salvation, agreed?Bearing this in mind, do you trust in God for your salvation before or after you ask God to do something?Think about what I'm saying here: Do you even trust in God for your salvation at all? In addition to the ones about the adversary tempting Christ, I'll now also note the "miracles" you noted above. You're undermining the question I asked by placing the qualifier "if the Christian God exists, has the powers that are attributed to him and wants people to know that he exists..." -- but that's not what I asked is it?My simple question is still the following: Do you honestly believe your beautiful purple candle will light spontaniously by God's will, yes or no?Hebrews 11:6 quite plainly states that without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.How exactly can God respond if you don't actually have faith in him?
__________________Note: I've simplified some of my points to reduce the amount I usually type (which is embarrasingly long). If you request, I will explain them more in depth to clarify any points that are at all confusing to you.Edit: added various points to clarify position as simply as posible.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-09-2005 08:58 PM

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It's actually a well-constructed yet subtle form of mental idolatry. Whether you realize it or not, you are effectively worshipping your beautiful unlit purple candle far more than you are worshipping God.

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No it is not worship (devotion for a deity). My candle is not a deity.

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then a candle spontaniously lighting in no way confirms one's salvation.

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I wasn't looking for confirmation of salvation. I'm not in need of rescuing.

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How exactly can God respond if you don't actually have faith in him?

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Are you saying that God is unable or unwilling to reveal himself to those without faith or that revealing himself is the reward for seeking him?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Then why are you treating it like one?I know your candle is not a deity -- and yet you place the spontanious ignition of the candle as a pre-requisite prior to believing that God exists, effectively focusing your attention on the candle more than God.In my opinion, idolatry can be subtle -- and I'm not trying to single you out by saying that I think you are engaging in some form of it. I'm fairly sure I engage in it whenever I place my trust in something -- such as money, technology, or other people -- more than I place my faith in God.It also seems to me that Christians like myself can be caught up in other subtle forms of mental idolatries -- such as denominationalism, biblical literalism, philosophy, etc.Like I said before, I personally do know that the candle is not a deity -- that's why I said that I thought it was well-constructed yet subtle form of "mental idolatry". Your faith in God depends on the candle -- and since the candle will never, ever light spontaniously, you've effectively trapped yourself into a position of unbelief -- a position which is exactly the alternative position you had before you concocted this test.It is my belief that humanities default belief is that of deism. Yes, and you don't really need God to light your candle either, do you? Nice complex question there purpledawn. The answer is neither.Here...let me break it down for you appropiately in two stages based on the pre-selected possibilities you've given in the question above. No.I've repeatedly said that I believe there are already plenty of reasons to believe God exists -- so much so that since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities ”- his eternal power and divine nature ”- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. No.He's revealing himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak.Those that listen and respond appropriately to what he has to say are those that he continues to talk with -- just like in real life we would tend to continue to talk with people who really listen to us and would tend to eventually walk away from those who ignore us to some extent.When God talks to us, I'm not necessarilly talking about a booming audible voice so much so that thunder voices his obliterated speech -- although this apparently does happen in rare circumstances. I'm talking more about the experience that we do not know what we ought to pray for, but that the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.In a sense, since all people are God's children regardless of what they believe, we speak inwardly to God much like a new-born cooing, crying, or giggling in the presence of the Holy Spirit (and, as a side note, I think this is what people experience when they authentically speak in tongues -- baby talk in the language of God). Admitedly, as each indiviual grows and is shaped by the culture they emerge from, each individual reaches a certain maturity level within which God responds -- with some cultures being more receptive to God's will while other cultures eventually becoming virtually closed to God's still-small voice over time.God, as a father, listens intently to these things and knows the maturity level within which each individual is capable of handling -- and the reward comes to those who continue to listen to what God asks in proportion to the level of maturity they have developed in him.Christ, as mediator, ensures that Christians, much like those who are more mature, hear his word more clearly -- but that does not mean that non-Christians, much like the younger children, are not capable of doing what the Spirit moves them to do. It also doesn't necessarilly mean that Christians do God's will either, although we certainly believe that we know what his will is.This is how I understand the Scriptures anyway.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-10-2005 12:06 AM

well... he's not talking to me !do you think it's my aftershave ??

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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I know your candle is not a deity -- and yet you place the spontanious ignition of the candle as a pre-requisite prior to believing that God exists, effectively focusing your attention on the candle more than God.

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But as a Christian I already believed that God, as Christianity presented him, existed. The confirmation is that of the Christian God. Does the God they present exist outside of the mind and literature?Even Gideon asked for confirmation that it was the Lord talking to him. (Of course Gideon wasn't Christian) So I figure if an angel of the Lord can make fire flare from a rock, he can light a simple candle.So I could conclude that since my candle was not lit by God or an angel of God, that the Christian religion is not presenting the truth or that their God does not exist outside of the mind and literature.

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and since the candle will never, ever light spontaniously

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Why not?

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Yes, and you don't really need God to light your candle either, do you?

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Gideon didn't NEED God to make a fire from the rock to consume the offering. He was capable of building a fire for the offering himself.Gideon also didn't NEED dew on the fleece.The confirmation was what he needed not the result of the action.I can light the candle with a match or lighter, I cannot light the candle without a match or lighter. For God to light the candle is just as astounding as making the rock burn, the fleece wet, or wet wood burn (Yes, Elijah).

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He's revealing himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak.

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And what verses in the Bible support this opinion?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Are you trolling me again Legend?It's not that I don't have a sense of humour, but your response seems to indicate you haven't read ahead through the rest of my post.

sorry Mr. Ex, I just can't help but reacting with a dose of healthy sarcasm to sweeping, unsupported statements like the one above.I suppose you could say God made me that way!P.S Yes I did read the rest of your post. I still think you made a sweeping, unsupported statement.P.P.S: I feel a bit put out. I mean... everyone that ever existed, exists and will exist.......apart from me!!!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

No, you didn't.If you had believed that God, as Christianity presented him, existed, then you wouldn't have been asking for him to light a candle in order to prove he existed, now would you?Does anyone else not understand what I'm saying here -- how one claim to believe God exists and then ask God to light a candle in order to prove that he really exists?

I can point these things out in the Scriptures, but I'm fairly sure you won't accept that. Actualy, I don't. I think we make ourselves that way. Legend, I've already explained what I mean -- and I've explained it from both church history and the scriptures. If you don't believe what I've explained then there's not much else I can say.It's not like people always need confirmation that their actions will result in the desired end.For example, many people attempt to court someone and they face the possibility of rejection. Yet their desire to find love over-rides their fear of rejection. They have no guarantee that their actions will result in love -- yet their advances can also just a likely result in a choice which can affect the rest of their lives -- whether positive or negative. You've never went to do something wrong and then, because your conscience told you it was wrong, decided not to do the action?

oh, go on then! Yes, but that was my conscience talking, not God.also, on a couple of occasions I've decided to do something wrong and then went ahead and did it anyway! Was God asleep on these occasions?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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If you had believed that God, as Christianity presented him, existed, then you wouldn't have been asking for him to light a candle in order to prove he existed, now would you?

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Now that I have my Christian Bluegrass CD in, I will see if I can explain. Where to start?Christianity does not present its God in a consistent manner. Dogma, tradition, evangelist, and preachers all bring their own opinions, rules, etc. to the mix.Amongst all this copious and sometimes conflicting information, is poor, poor pitiful me. I was quite content not studying the Bible and just being a good person. Unfortunately the churches I attended felt otherwise and insisted that I needed to attend Bible Study. My husband and I finally relented over 10 years ago.I went to many Bible studies, and bought the required books and tapes. I am an avid reader and had no problem doing the required homework. Unfortunately the more I learned the more I saw that what the teachers and preachers presented wasn't what the Bible was saying.Now I have conflicting information. Bible information conflicts with teacher, preachers conflict with preachers, etc. Nothing was consistent. Where does a girl turn? To her Daddy of course!Well in true Christian fashion I turned to my Father in Heaven. The more I prayed the clearer things got, unfortunately they weren't in favor of Christianity.So the ultimate question to God is: Are the tenets of Christianity true? If yes, light the candle.Since the candle did not flame, either 1) an existing God does not support Christianity or 2) No God exists outside of literature and the mind.Quite frankly, all your explanations have really supported the idea that God exists in the mind.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

No kidding? Then perhaps you should have stayed that way. I'm not trying to be mean. However, I think you actually went against your own conscience in relenting to their requests. Uh...no.It could also mean that there is sufficient evidence to understand this on your own without God lighting a candle. It could also mean that God's grace is sufficient to carry your through whatever doubts you might have. If you're refering to all the tenets of all the various Christian denominations -- which do quite often contradict themselves -- then I can tell you personally that, in my own opinion, they are not all true.You don't need a candle lighting, however, to tell you that.Which denomination did you go to by the way -- or did you go to an eclectic mix of denominations?

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However, I think you actually went against your own conscience in relenting to their requests.

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Ignorance is bliss, right? Against my own conscience or God? So Satan wanted me to study the Bible?

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It could also mean that God's grace is sufficient to carry your through whatever doubts you might have.

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That doesn't make sense.

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If you're refering to all the tenets of all the various Christian denominations -- which do quite often contradict themselves -- then I can tell you personally that, in my own opinion, they are not all true.

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Great, but who are you?You say they aren't true, they say they are true, someone else says they are half true.You've also presented ideas that, IMO, aren't supported by the Bible.I guess truth is in the eye of the presenter.I have more inner peace now than when I was a Christian. IMO, I've matured beyond the need for religion.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Since I notice that you're not really answering my questions, I'll just note that you probably weren't ready to study the Scriptures.Yes, the adversary often does quote Scripture out of context in order to confuse. Since you've now rejected Christianity in toto by demanding that God light your candle for you in order to resolve your confusion, I guess I'll just conclude that the adversary did play some part in your biblical confusion.But, in saying this, I'm not suggesting that you are to blame for this. It seems more reasonable to me to note that those who were teaching you while contradicting themselves and forcing you into faith (in order to meet their quota much like salesmen) will possibly be most likely held responsible.Ultimately, however, if you were suppposed to follow the path of Christianity based on the books that were sold to you, only God can say for sure if you had the competence to see if the teachings presented to you were right or wrong. I don't know what they were taching you. However, you seem like a smart woman so I find it hard to believe that you couldn't understand some of these things simply by listening to God's Spirit.Either way you look at it, God's not going to light your candle for you. You can do it on your own when you're moved by God's Spirit to do so. I guess you may as well get used to sitting in the darkness. Sometime, when I have chance in private prayer, I'll light a candle for you and hope for the best.

I already have explained many things in detail. What else could I say? Actually, you believe that was your conscience talking, not God. Just like I believe that God speaks through your conscience -- and you have the choice whether to listen or not. No. I believe he was speaking to you through your conscience -- and you basically ignored him. We all do that sometimes.