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Author Topic:   Haeckeling, trying to wrap it up....
Omnivorous
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Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 8 of 93 (268407)
12-12-2005 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by pink sasquatch
12-12-2005 6:34 PM


A little close reading
Randman, can we settle once and for all that Haeckel's 19th century drawings were spotted as partial fakes almost immediately--by contemporaneous scientists, not by modern creationists--and that the debate over the evolutionary and embryologic developmental principles continues? Because that is what your citation describes.
I thought you were going to show how Haeckel's drawings have been nearly universally used without quibble by evolutionists from the day they first appeared. Your cited journal article says otherwise:
Haeckel’s ideas soon came in for strong criticism. His
drawings are also highly inaccurate, exaggerating the
similarities among embryos, while failing to show the
differences (Sedgwick 1894; Richardson 1995; Raff
1996). Sedgwick (1894) argued that even closely related
species of vertebrates can be told apart at all stages of
development, but that the distinguishing characters are
not necessarily the same as those used to distinguish
among adults. Lillie (1919) argued that embryos show as
much proportional variation as adult stages, but that
adults look more divergent because of differential growth
and an increase in size and complexity of organisation.
The idea that embryonic stages are more resistant than
other stages to evolutionary change was criticised by de
Beer (1951). Summarising more than a century of comparative
embryology studies he concluded:
. there are no grounds for the view that an organism as it develops
passes through systematic categories of differing ”values’, or
of differing degrees of estrangement from organisms of other
groups. (de Beer 1951).
The idea of a phylogenetically conserved stage has regained
popularity in recent years.
The picture I get is one of a debate that began in 1874, a debate that continues in altered form today. I would be curious to follow citations of this article forward to see if it has as thoroughly settled the debate as its authors believe it has.
Interestingly, the article concludes (emphasis added):
These modifications of embryonic development are difficult
to reconcile with the idea that most or all vertebrate
clades pass through an embryonic stage that is highly resistant
to evolutionary change. This idea is implicit in
Haeckel’s drawings, which have been used to substantiate
two quite distinct claims. First, that differences between
species typically become more apparent at late
stages. Second, that vertebrate embryos are virtually
identical at earlier stages. This first claim is clearly true.
Our survey, however, does not support the second claim,
and instead reveals considerable variability - and evolutionary
lability - of the tailbud stage, the purported phylotypic
stage of vertebrates. We suggest that not all developmental
mechanisms are highly constrained by conserved
developmental mechanisms such as the zootype.
Embryonic stages may be key targets for macroevolutionary
change.
...suggesting that embryologic studies promise to further our understanding of evolution, not falsify it.
Finally, I see two significant mentions of textbooks:
There has been no textbook of descriptive comparative embryology
in English, covering all the major vertebrate groups, for over 70 years (Jenkinson 1913; Kerr 1919).
Clearly this field has not been a hotbed of evolutionary scheming.
and
These drawings are still widely reproduced in textbooks and review
articles, and continue to exert a significant influence
on the development of ideas in this field (Wolpert 1991;
Alberts et al. 1994; Duboule 1994). Sedgwick (1894) and
Richardson (1995) have argued that Haeckel’s drawings
are inaccurate, and we have now provided persuasive evidence
that this is indeed the case.
Please note that the citations include authors highly critical of Haeckel and his drawings, then and now.
Many of the fossil frauds of the 19th and 20th century are discussed and pictured in textbooks as well, but that doesn't mean the frauds are being perpetuated.
So what are we left with?
A fraud unchallenged by evolutionary science and perpetuated uncritically in textbooks that assert Haeckel's ideas as gospel?
Or a fraud almost immediately detected, yet one whose author had tremendous impact on the history of the biological sciences and whose famous theory and drawings properly belong in any treatment of science's history?
Apparently, despite his fraudulent drawings, some of his conceptual framework continues to be debated today.
What you have presented with this article does not bear the weight of your charges against contemporary evolutionary scientists.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 29 of 93 (268514)
12-12-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by randman
12-12-2005 10:11 PM


Re: So?
Richardson stated in 1997 that evos still used Haeckel's set of drawings and his claim widely at that time, not for historical analysis but as factual claims. He says that evos relied on Haeckel's claims of a phylotypic stage without further substantation, and that evos habitually published Haeckel's drawings in textbooks to validate those claims.
Could you show me where Richardson says this? I can't seem to find it.
I understand you would like to confine this thread to a "have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no" kind of question, but that ain't gonna happen.
I want to see the passage from the article that can be fairly paraphrased as "evos habitually published Haeckel's drawings in textbooks to validate those claims." I don't think you can produce it.

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 Message 31 by randman, posted 12-12-2005 10:58 PM Omnivorous has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 32 of 93 (268525)
12-12-2005 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by randman
12-12-2005 10:53 PM


Re: Credible evidence?
Let me repeat that. "It's almost as though the phylotypic stage is regarded as a biological concept for which no proof is needed".
Need anyone say more?
Need anyone say more than "almost as though"?
Sure.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 36 of 93 (268538)
12-12-2005 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by randman
12-12-2005 10:58 PM


Re: So?
Yes, we've all read the OP, Rand, give that crap a rest.
These drawings are still widely reproduced in textbooks and review articles, and continue to exert a significant influence
on the development of ideas in this field (Wolpert 1991;
Alberts et al. 1994; Duboule 1994).
Sorry, Rand, that quote cannot be reasonably paraphrased as "evos habitually published Haeckel's drawings in textbooks to validate those claims."
1. No mention of evolution or "evos."
2. No description of the purposes to which those drawing were put in either textbook or journal.
3. No quantification of "widely" or for that matter any support for its use.
4. No assessment of how the drawings were addressed in the vaguely referred to texts.
They are not equivalent statements, Rand. You have added your own nasty spin to arrive at that paraphrase, and you cannot even see the difference.
The assertions you are relying on most don't say what you claim they say, and they are the most generalized, unsupported assertions in the article. You see, it's not just creationists whose unsupported assertions one must be wary of, eh?
I see that there are 72 citations for this article in Google scholar. Did you look at any of those, Rand? If not, why not? If the article has been refuted in any significant part, wouldn't that make you guilty of perpetuating a fraud when you could simply have looked to see? You didn't, did you? Need I say more?
BTW, have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no? Can't give a simple honest answer, can you?

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This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 44 of 93 (268557)
12-12-2005 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by randman
12-12-2005 11:21 PM


Re: So?
Why not just admit the truth? That Haeckel's drawings were "the source material" for evolutionist's embryonic claims in textbooks, and worse than that, in peer-reviewed work.
What were the "evolutionist's embryonic claims" in Miller's textbook?
Say, those pictures look kinda similar...do you think there's some common descent there?
BTW, have you stopped beating your wife?

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 Message 45 by randman, posted 12-12-2005 11:38 PM Omnivorous has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 50 of 93 (268566)
12-12-2005 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by randman
12-12-2005 11:38 PM


Re: So?
So far you have presented evidence that drawings after Haeckel were used in Miller's textbook in discussions of comparative embryology, and that they were replaced with more accurate images.
You have not documented their use there, or elsewhere, to substantiate anyone's claims about evolution.
Now, I must refuse to answer any more questions until I know whether or not you have stopped beating your wife.
Yes or no, please.
BTW, have a safe trip, Rand. I'm to bed.

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