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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Chavalon Inactive Member |
quote: This is a logical question, Forgiven, but of course logic only works within logically indeterminate limits. Gzus can very possibly be persuaded of this, but it cuts both ways The mutually exclusive truth claims made by strong adherents of all the religions mentioned do seem to throw severe doubt on the universal validity of any of them. Most pragmatic empiricists do not see profit in ideas of the transcendent, especially in sorting through claim and counter-claim, and may be called atheists, as much for a lack of interest as a lack of capacity for the subject. Suppose a buddhist were to claim that the concept of God is a benign and useful way of conceptualising the thoughts and feelings which arise if one sees merit in entertaining such ideas. Buddhists can and do describe themselves as pragmatic, empirical, religious and atheistic.
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Chavalon Inactive Member |
quote:-But it is possible to verify publically that the world is, in fact, approximately spherical. No such verification is possible for metaphysical assertions, or there would be as much consensus about religious entities as there is about physical ones. quote: -The buddha insisted that to say even a single word on the subject of metaphysics is to fall into error - that the subject is, in the true sense of the word, ineffable. Rather, he started from a different point: All existence is suffering.The true origination of suffering has been discovered. The stopping of that suffering is possible. The way leading to the stopping of suffering is the Eight-fold path: 1. Right Understanding2. Right Thought 3. Right Speech 4. Right Action 5. Right Livelihood 6. Right Effort 7. Right Mindfulness 8. Right Concentration A non-theistic system of morality. It is claimed that the truth of these assertions can be verified by living them. Thus it is - in a rather subjective way - pragmatic and empirical. Some say that it is a philosophy rather than a religion, but it is a truth claim of buddhism that to achieve all of this is to see everything clearly (and of course wordlessly), transcending oneself and achieving a timeless, heaven-like state of conciousness. Thus there is a promise of transcendence, but without any claims about the supernatural, so it is both religious and atheistic. Edited for a more enlightening quote structure! [This message has been edited by Chavalon, 12-28-2002]
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Chavalon Inactive Member |
quote: -Nor is it. It shows it to be undecidable.quote: - Metaphysics exists, in our minds if nowhere else, but none of its propositions are decidable using logic. Buddha regarded its importance as trivial in comparison with the suffering actually experienced by sentient beings. If the Christian God is other than metaphysical, can you cite the evidence? Can you explain why it is not as widely accepted as the sphericity of the planets? quote: I suggested in a previous post that the revelation experienced by Cristians may be a benign projection of their own buddha nature ('godlikeness'). Of course, this is a metaphysical speculation, so a buddhist wouldn't make it. I'm not one (that would also involve being a non-smoking vegetarian ) so I'll say it and apologise for making observations that may be thought rude. The true reality, metaphysics and all, can - it is asserted - be directly experienced through fully realised meditation. It is however impossible to communicate the resulting insights linguistically. The standard similie is that talk of reality is to reality itself as a menu is to a meal.
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Chavalon Inactive Member |
...giving up one's pride, abandoning one's centricity in the universe...
...is fundamental to fully realised meditation. In fact 'meditation with the aim of achieving enlightenment' is essentially the same thing as 'contemplative prayer with the aim of union with the Godhead' - as practiced by John of the Cross, Theresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart and other less well known Christian mystics. It is possible to establish extremely close correspondences between the two, according to accounts of practitioners*. In fact, at least one Christian commentator has claimed that St John of the Cross was both entirely Christian and entirely buddhist... The result is the same, the axioms different. You wrote i think metaphysical entities can be proven using logic, but can't be proven in an empirical sense which is obvious if you choose the right axioms. How do you feel about the fact that other axioms can lead to equivalent results with a much simpler metaphysic? *Details in Aldous Huxley's 'The Perennial Philosophy'.
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Chavalon Inactive Member |
Oh come on, Forgiven. An axiom is a basic assumption.
There is no proselytising tradition in buddhism. Those who are motivated to learn about it are encouraged to do so, but I'm not your best source of information. I have been pointing out that many religions, such as buddhism and christianity, are substantially equivalent in many ways (the morality, the mystical core) apart from the undecidable metaphysical parts, which seem to have no publically verifiable proof. The reader may possibly recall that this thread started as an investigation of personal divine revelation, something also common to all religions but 'objectively' unprovable. I suggest that although people think it comes from their God, the metaphysical framework of revelation is an accident of birth and culture, and that the experience of revelation is a consequence of the fact that people, unaided by the divine, are even more extraordinary than they realise. You seem to believe that I hold these beliefs through self deception, love of sin and fear of divine perfection. In the end it's all ipse dixit on both sides, as one would expect of this subject matter. Go well. 'El chavaln' [This message has been edited by Chavalon, 12-29-2002] [This message has been edited by Chavalon, 12-29-2002]
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