EvC Forum: The TRUE reason for the EvC controversy, and why it can not be resolved.

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Topic: The TRUE reason for the EvC controversy, and why it can not be resolved.

ringo

Member (Idle past 442 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

ringo Posts Only

Message 61 of 302 (297787)
03-24-2006 11:15 AM

Reply to: Message 44 by compmage
03-24-2006 4:28 AM

Re: The brain is not just insulation

Gone full circle writes:

The purpose was to discover if we have common ground. Without it, a debate on christianity will lead nowhere.

We can discover common ground as we go along, like we would in any other debate.

I became aware that many non-Christian experience Christians as "holier than thou". I sure hope that is not how I'm comming accross....

How do you think it comes across if you say this person is not a Christian and that person is not a Christian? If that isn't judgmental, what is?

Read the topic of the debate. I'm not debating evolution with anyone anymore, as I no longer see the point.

Read the title of the site. Debating evolution is what we do here.

If your arguements do not share common ground, they will not have any impact.

I'm not hoping to have any impact on you. I'm hoping to show others the flaws in your thinking.

In other words, you're not a Christian, as you reject the central theme of the religion.

I didn't say I reject anything. I said you should question everything. (Another example of you jumping to a conclusion about who is a Christian. Slow down and think.)

you have to believe it to be true for you to be a christian. Otherwise I can call myself a Redridinghooder if I like the message of Little Red Riding Hood. I suppose I can, but that is not what religion is.

You have to believe certain things to belong to the club called "Christians" - but you don't know what I believe. And "what religion is" is following the message, not just going to the club meetings.

... if science do not apply to the time before the fall, how can we be expected to accurately explain how things happened back then?

"The Fall" has no basis in either science or theology. (It is NOT necessary to believe in "the Fall" to be a Christian.) You're just making up a hypothetical barrier which science can't cross.

... if you reject Genesis 1 because it doesn't fit into a naturalist world view, you're not far off from rejecting the entire bible.

Who's "rejecting" Genesis? I have more respect for Genesis than you do because I don't try to jam it into a narrow pre-conceived interpretation. Which is more important in the long run? Crime and Punishment or last week's New York Times?

There is much more to Genesis than mere history. Please try to understand what it says.

In the end, it comes down to: do you believe nature is a product of Gods creation, or do you believe god is a imaginary creation of nature.

No it doesn't - it comes down to: do you believe the Creation was created by God? If you do, you ought to have enough respect for Him and His creation to look at it.

I completely understand your position. What I'm trying to say is, your position based on science, can not falsify a religion....

Then you completely misunderstand my position. I am not trying to falsify any religion.

I am trying to clarify it. You can not have a clear understanding of your own religion if you try to separate the Creation from the God who created it.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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	Message 44 by compmage, posted 03-24-2006 4:28 AM		compmage has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 442 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

ringo Posts Only

Message 62 of 302 (297788)
03-24-2006 11:19 AM

Reply to: Message 47 by robinrohan
03-24-2006 6:29 AM

Re: The brain is not just insulation

robinrohan writes:

If Jesus was not a "historical personage," I guess it wasn't he that "brought the message."

Bingo. The message is universal. It has always been here.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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jar

Member (Idle past 424 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 63 of 302 (297789)
03-24-2006 11:22 AM

Reply to: Message 20 by compmage
03-23-2006 11:33 AM

Are we special?

You have no problem with a God that created and destroyed life for billions of years, and then pick our one species to whom he promises eternal and blissful life?

None what so ever, mainly because that is not my belief. I don't believe that humans are some special critter selected by GOD for some special goodies.

Science says once something is dead, it's dead, yet we believe in the resurrection. There is no proof for that either.

That's correct. Any Christian that says he or she knows for sure that there is a resurrection is simply lying to themselves. I believe there is a resurrection, but cannot know until after the fact.

I fail, however, to see how a Christian, who believes in Jesus and all the mirricles that goes with him, the Second Comming, and heaven and hell, and everything else that is unscientific and unprovable in the bible, object to genesis, simply because science says so.

There are several, many in fact, reason why I know, not just believe, that the account in Genesis is not true. For one, there is not one story in Genesis but two different mutually exclusive Creation myths in Genesis.

The other big thing is that there is overwhelming evidence that the earth and universe are old and that man evolved just like all the other critters we see.

It is possible that GOD created the universe last Tuesday and then made it look old. But if that is the case then God is not the Christian GOD but rather Loki, the trickster.

I personally believe that GOD created the universe. What science tells us is how He did it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan

Inactive Member

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Message 64 of 302 (297792)
03-24-2006 12:06 PM

Reply to: Message 63 by jar
03-24-2006 11:22 AM

Re: Are we special?

Are we special?

We are no more (or less) special than a mosquito in my book, but Christianity seems to say we are.

"Headpiece filled with straw, Alas!"--T. S. Eliot

This message is a reply to:
	Message 63 by jar, posted 03-24-2006 11:22 AM		jar has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 65 by jar, posted 03-24-2006 12:24 PM		robinrohan has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 424 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 65 of 302 (297794)
03-24-2006 12:24 PM

Reply to: Message 64 by robinrohan
03-24-2006 12:06 PM

Re: Are we special?

We are no more (or less) special than a mosquito in my book, but Christianity seems to say we are.

Again, that is not something that is held to be true by many if not most Christians.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
	Message 64 by robinrohan, posted 03-24-2006 12:06 PM		robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 67 by robinrohan, posted 03-24-2006 12:56 PM	jar has replied
	Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-24-2006 1:01 PM	jar has replied

Modulous

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From: Manchester, UK

Joined: 05-01-2005

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Message 66 of 302 (297795)
03-24-2006 12:37 PM

Reply to: Message 44 by compmage
03-24-2006 4:28 AM

Before the fall

Therefore, science is only accurate when it is applied to nature in its fallen state. It can not possibly apply to nature in heaven, as it can not apply to nature before the fall. And if science do not apply to the time before the fall, how can we be expected to accurately explain how things happened back then?

An important thing to do would be to see if we can't deduce approximately when the fall happened. Then we need to come up with some kind of theological reason why God would choose to have fallen nature appear like a universe that hasn't 'fallen', but is merely a naturally existing old universe.

What reason would God have for making all dating techniques point towards the same conclusions? What reason would God have for Supernova 1987A? The only reason I can think up is deception, but we know God cannot lie. If God is real, all these things lining up so wonderfully cannot be a coincidence, he must have done it on purpose (otherwise he would be unaware of the consequences of his actions, but since God knows all, we have a contradiction; ergo he must have done it on purpose).

As it stands, the only way we can use the Bible to extract when the fall happened is through the use of genealogies. Should we take heed of these genealogies?

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robinrohan

Inactive Member

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Message 67 of 302 (297798)
03-24-2006 12:56 PM

Reply to: Message 65 by jar
03-24-2006 12:24 PM

Re: Are we special?

Again, that is not something that is held to be true by many if not most Christians.

I thought there was something in the Christian tradition about God sacrificing His only begotten Son for the sins of mankind. I heard that somewhere, I'm certain.

This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-24-2006 11:56 AM

This message is a reply to:
	Message 65 by jar, posted 03-24-2006 12:24 PM		jar has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 68 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2006 1:00 PM	robinrohan has replied
	Message 69 by jar, posted 03-24-2006 1:00 PM	robinrohan has not replied

Wounded King

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Posts: 4149

From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

Joined: 04-09-2003

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Message 68 of 302 (297800)
03-24-2006 1:00 PM

Reply to: Message 67 by robinrohan
03-24-2006 12:56 PM

Re: Are we special?

But he sacrificed his only begotten mosquito as well, it just never made such big press.

TTFN,

This message is a reply to:
	Message 67 by robinrohan, posted 03-24-2006 12:56 PM		robinrohan has replied

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jar

Member (Idle past 424 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

jar Posts Only

Message 69 of 302 (297801)
03-24-2006 1:00 PM

Reply to: Message 67 by robinrohan
03-24-2006 12:56 PM

Getting way Off Topic

but if you want to start a thread on it I'll be happy to discuss my views related to that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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New Cat's Eye

Inactive Member

New Cat's Eye Posts Only

Message 70 of 302 (297802)
03-24-2006 1:01 PM

Reply to: Message 65 by jar
03-24-2006 12:24 PM

Re: Are we special?

We are no more (or less) special than a mosquito in my book, but Christianity seems to say we are.

Again, that is not something that is held to be true by many if not most Christians.

I disagree. Most of the christians I know think that we are special. Then again, maybe my sample size is too small.

What about this part?

Gen 1:26 writes:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Do you think that being made in god's image and ruling over the creatures is not special? or do you not agree with this passage?

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down

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	Message 65 by jar, posted 03-24-2006 12:24 PM		jar has replied

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jar

Member (Idle past 424 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

jar Posts Only

Message 71 of 302 (297804)
03-24-2006 1:04 PM

Reply to: Message 70 by New Cat's Eye
03-24-2006 1:01 PM

Re: Are we special?

see Message 69

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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robinrohan

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Message 72 of 302 (297853)
03-24-2006 4:40 PM

Reply to: Message 70 by New Cat's Eye
03-24-2006 1:01 PM

Re: Are we special?

You are right, ye old Catholic Scientist.

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robinrohan

Inactive Member

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Message 73 of 302 (297855)
03-24-2006 4:52 PM

Reply to: Message 68 by Wounded King
03-24-2006 1:00 PM

Re: Are we special?

But he sacrificed his only begotten mosquito as well, it just never made such big press.

I don't think mosquitoes can sin.

"Headpiece filled with straw, Alas!"--T. S. Eliot

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robinrohan

Inactive Member

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Message 74 of 302 (297867)
03-24-2006 5:28 PM

Reply to: Message 71 by jar
03-24-2006 1:04 PM

Re: Are we special?

A typical tactic by Jar. If he doesn't want to talk about something, he says it's off-topic.

"Headpiece filled with straw, Alas!"--T. S. Eliot

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	Message 78 by Admin, posted 03-25-2006 10:35 AM		robinrohan has replied

cavediver

Member (Idle past 3673 days)

Posts: 4129

From: UK

Joined: 06-16-2005

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Message 75 of 302 (297929)
03-24-2006 7:49 PM

Reply to: Message 66 by Modulous
03-24-2006 12:37 PM

Re: Before the fall

What reason would God have for making all dating techniques point towards the same conclusions?

I have similar ideas to GFC every now and again, but with some important differences. To me, God is about love not science. I see the Earth of Creation as a very simple place, no complicated atoms and forces... it just is. People are really made of animated clay. After all, the important bit is the spirit/soul and it just needs a vessel.

The Fall happens (for reasons only hinted at in Genesis) and God departs leaving Lucifer/Satan as Lord of this universe. Now Satan is much more the scientist, and HE does a spot of recreation erasing all the aspects he can of God's initial work... and volia, the universe as we know it.

Ok, ok, a little too Milton on acid... BUT it does provide the perfect rationale for the YEC:

1) The real truth is that the Earth IS young

2) The fossils WERE "placed" there to deceive

3) Scientists ARE doing the devil's work.

It's so obvious when you think about it