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Author Topic:   Does Allah = Moon God?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 46 of 300 (307957)
04-30-2006 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
04-30-2006 2:25 PM


Re: Unhelp
This really is getting ridiculous. You feel free to expect other people to know what you are talking about and check back if necessary. But you won't do it yourself - even when people are trying to get you to clarify something that YOU SAID only a short time before.
Can't you see the glaring double standard ?
So lets get it clear. You described the people who disagree with the claim that Allah is the Moon-God Sin as "the pro-Islam crowd". On what basis did you make this claim.l

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 2:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 4:42 PM PaulK has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 47 of 300 (307962)
04-30-2006 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
04-30-2006 1:47 PM


Re: Sorting it out
To this day, a crescent moon can be found at the front of every mosque,
acknowledging that Allah was, and is the moon god...."
From the OP
Nobody said Islam still worships the moon god. The OP is about how the name came from the moon god. That's the whole topic. Now they worship some concept of one Creator God using the old pagan name.
Okay I'm confused.
Is this thread about the etymology of the word Allah?
Or is about which God Islam worships?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 1:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 3:16 PM lfen has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 48 of 300 (307964)
04-30-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
04-30-2006 2:25 PM


Re: Sorting it out
I saw your post but all you say is that in your reading you found the moon god called Sin. But others have found the moon god called Allah. I didn't see that you authenticated the name Sin or tried to find out if there are other names or why that one and not Allah.
I actually said that the moon god, Sin, was the chief god and he was sometimes called 'the God'. In Arabic 'the God' is 'Al-ilah' which is rendered 'Allah'.
I can happily substantiate that Sin was the name of the god whilst Allah was a title that could be ascribed to any chief god, with a website from the "opposite side" of the debate.
According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al-ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times.
ALLAH, the Moon God
Its the first thing that comes up when I type sin moon god into google, you can find a whole bunch more by doing the search.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 2:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 3:51 PM Modulous has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 300 (307965)
04-30-2006 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by lfen
04-30-2006 3:08 PM


Re: Sorting it out
I guess I didn't read the OP carefully enough. But I'm not sure to what extent Buz really means to say Allah IS the moon god, considering that Muslims no longer think of Allah as anything but the one Creator God.
The connection I might make is that since the name was originally the moon god's and the crescent moon is still the symbol of Islam, that at the very least this removes Allah far from any similarity with Jehovah. But it's not necessary to argue this, because the fact of a different name at all, plus Islam's repudiation of the name Jehovah or Yahweh, plus the teachings of Islam which contradict the Bible's, already remove Allah far from any such association.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by lfen, posted 04-30-2006 3:08 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by lfen, posted 04-30-2006 3:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 52 by lfen, posted 04-30-2006 3:43 PM Faith has replied
 Message 55 by ReverendDG, posted 04-30-2006 3:54 PM Faith has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 50 of 300 (307966)
04-30-2006 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
04-30-2006 3:16 PM


Re: Sorting it out
Faith,
To save you having to click on a link I'm pasting this from Wikepedia. I don't accept Wikipedia as a trustworthy source but in this case they point to some of the parameters of the issue. Etymology and linguistics are not precise science and there is a lot of room for differences of scholarly opinion. I do think you are offering a way over simplistic explanation.
"Allah" as a word
Many linguists believe that the term Allh is derived from a contraction of the Arabic words al (the) and ilh (deity, masculine form) - al-ilh meaning "the god." In addition, one of the main pagan goddesses of pre-Islamic Arabia, Allt (al + ilh + at, or 'the goddess'), is cited as being etymologically (though not synchronically) the feminine linguistic counterpart to the grammatically masculine Allh. If so, the word Allh is an abbreviated title, meaning 'the deity', rather than a name. For this reason, both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars often translate Allh directly into English as 'God'; this also explains why Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians freely refer to God as Allh.
However, some Muslim scholars feel that "Allh" should not be translated, because they perceived the Arabic word to express the uniqueness of "Allh" more accurately than the word "god", which can take a plural "gods", whereas the word "Allh" has no plural form. This is a significant issue in translation of the Qur'an.
But there is a connection between the respective words for God in closely related Semitic languages:The word for God in Genesis 1:1 is elohim, which is essentially a plural form of a more basic root-Hebrew word for God, —(eloah). The Arabic translation of the Jewish Bible uses the name "Allah" to refer to God in Genesis 1:1. In addition to the etymological connection based on sound,it was discovered that connections existed between the two Names based on roots, spelling, meaning, and geography.
The root itself finds its origin with an older root, el, which means God, deity, power, strength. The Aramaic word for God, according to the Lexicon is Image:Alah estra.gif (alah). This word, in the standard script (Image:Alah aram.gif), or the Estrangela script (Image:Alah estra.gif), is spelled alap-lamad-heh (ALH), which are the exact corresponding letters to the Hebrew eloh. The Aramaic is closely related to the more ancient root word for God, eel. The Arabic word for God, Allah, is spelled in a very similar way, and is remotely related to the more generic word for deity, ilah. The ancient Semitic names for God (Allah and Elohim) are actually the same.
Allah - Wikipedia
I'm sure that there are scholars who will dispute the final conclusion but I find it interesting that Allah may be the Elohim of Genesis.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 3:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 3:41 PM lfen has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 300 (307969)
04-30-2006 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by lfen
04-30-2006 3:27 PM


Re: Sorting it out
OK, I'm getting that there is an original etymological link but "El" just meant "god" and there were LOTS of gods in the Middle East. And Allah certainly did have a plural form if it is the equivalent of El. By the time of Abraham the worship of the one true God was pretty much lost in the welter of local gods. Abraham's family worshiped pagan gods. Much much later, so did Mohammed's. And the name allah was already in use, as I'm going to post in a minute, and it referred to any god, and there were hundreds, but also to the most prominent god in the pantheon, as "the god." The word itself doesn't tell you what sort of god is referenced. You have to know the historical context.
By the way, I'm not allergic to links, just to links that aren't introduced by some clear reference to what is in them. I have a friend who sends me links without giving me a clue why I should read them. I've asked him PLEASE let me know what's in the thing. My computer is slow and it's a pain to search through a whole site to find something when the debater should have just quoted or paraphrased (don't the forum guidelines say to argue it in your own words?)
Anyway thanks for the quote. It helps a lot.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-30-2006 03:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by lfen, posted 04-30-2006 3:27 PM lfen has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 52 of 300 (307970)
04-30-2006 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
04-30-2006 3:16 PM


Re: Sorting it out
that at the very least this removes Allah far from any similarity with Jehovah.
ANY? similarity! One basic rational academic approach to issues like this and often paper assignments begin: Compare and Contrast.
There are certainly comparison and certainly contrasts. As to similiarity I think you need some dimensions or a standard. The background for similiarity is more than two things. Similiar to or dissimiliar to what?
Allah and Jehovah are more similiar to each other than either is to a large body of water for example, or a comic book hero, or a cat. It appears to me they are even more similiar to each other than they are to Zeus or Isis.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 3:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 3:47 PM lfen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 300 (307971)
04-30-2006 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by lfen
04-30-2006 3:43 PM


Re: Sorting it out
That kind of similarity is like the similarity between the landscape of Africa and the landscape of Alaska. They are both part of planet earth. I guess I should avoid totalizing language, which is a bad habit of mine, but I think on the last thread about Allah I showed clearly how Allah and Jehovah are not remotely the same God. And this has nothing to do with the fact that they are both described as omniscient and so on and so forth.
They contradict each other on crucial facts. One of them is imaginary.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-30-2006 03:53 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by lfen, posted 04-30-2006 3:43 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by lfen, posted 04-30-2006 4:08 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 54 of 300 (307972)
04-30-2006 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Modulous
04-30-2006 3:13 PM


Re: Sorting it out
OK I googled as you suggested and found one of the best sites on the subject of Islam, the site FaithFreedom.org run by ex Muslims who really know their stuff.
They say that Sin was one tribal name for the moon god. There were others.
Did different Arab tribes give the Moon-god different names/titles? Yes
What were some of the names/titles? Sin, Hubul, Ilumquh, Al-ilah.
Was the title “al-ilah” (the god) used as the Moon-god? Yes
Was the word “Allah” derived from “al-ilah?” Yes
Was the pagan “Allah” a high god in a pantheon of deities? Yes.
Was he worshipped at the Kabah? Yes.
Was Allah only one of many Meccan gods? Yes
Did they place a statue of Hubul on top of the Kabah? Yes.
At that time was Hubul considered the Moon-god? Yes.
Was the Kabah thus the “house of the Moon-god”? Yes.
Did the name “Allah” eventually replace that of Hubul as the name of the Moon god? Yes.
Did they call the Kabah the “house of Allah”? Yes.
Were al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat called “the daughters of Allah”? Yes.
Yusuf Ali explains in fn. 5096, pg. 1445, that Lat, Uzza and Manat were known as “the daughters of God [Allah]”
Did the Qur’an at one point tell Muslims to worship al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat? Yes.
In Surah 53:19-20.Have those verses been “abrogated” out of the present Qur’an? Yes.
What were they called? “The Satanic Verses.”
...(B) Arabs used to give their children names such as”Abdullah (slave of Allah). Clean proof was the fact that, Muhammad’s father’s name was “Abdullah”. Logical analogy here is”had there been no “Allah” in pre-Islamic Arab, there could be no Abdullah or slave of Allah in Arabia.
...The central shrine at Mekka was the Pagan’s Kaaba (called House of Allah), a cube like stone structure which still stands though many times rebuilt. Imbedded in one corner is the black stone, probably a meteorite, the kissing of which is now an essential part of the Muslim’s pilgrimage.
It is the historical fact that the Ka’aba, the sacred shrine which contains the Black Stone, in Mecca was used for pagan idol worship before Islam and even called the House of Allah at that time. The name of the God whom the Arabs worshipped was the god of pantheon”Ali-ilah the god, the supreme, the predeterminer of everybody’s life or destiny”the chief God “Allah”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Modulous, posted 04-30-2006 3:13 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Modulous, posted 04-30-2006 4:14 PM Faith has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4140 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 55 of 300 (307973)
04-30-2006 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
04-30-2006 3:16 PM


Re: Sorting it out
The connection I might make is that since the name was originally the moon god's and the crescent moon is still the symbol of Islam, that at the very least this removes Allah far from any similarity with Jehovah. But it's not necessary to argue this, because the fact of a different name at all, plus Islam's repudiation of the name Jehovah or Yahweh, plus the teachings of Islam which contradict the Bible's, already remove Allah far from any such association.
what do you mean? theres a bigger link than you want to believe, the god is unamed, since none of the names are really names they are titles, even jehovah and yahweh are titles, allah is a title for god, THE god
he gave a revelation to people, he blessed them, he said "you believe in me as the one and only god, you will be fruitful and happy"
that sounds just like the other two!
like i have been saying, since its not your version of god, its wrong, its not based on anything but your own opinion
this is just spliting hairs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 3:16 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Argusx43, posted 04-30-2006 4:32 PM ReverendDG has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 56 of 300 (307976)
04-30-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
04-30-2006 3:47 PM


Re: Sorting it out
By Compare and Contrast I was not talking about simile.
I meant this as in they are both monotheistic, are based on sacred revealed texts, etc.
In contrast list specific differences. The revealed text of one claims that God chose the Jews, whilst the other claim God chose the Arabs, and so on.
If you choose make personal statements just make it clear they are your feelings as in: I totally believe in one and the other I totally disbelieve and despise.
However, these personal opinions are not likely to be of much weight to other readers and are of course beyond dispute. I mean if you love chocolate syrup on your mashed potatos who is to say you don't?
On the other hand if I said I like chocolate syrup on my mashed potatoes I would be pulling your leg, which could be construed as lying or imaginative entertainment.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 3:47 PM Faith has replied

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 57 of 300 (307977)
04-30-2006 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
04-30-2006 3:51 PM


Re: Sorting it out
Doesn't seem to be contradicting anything I just said. It was title used for the chief deity; it literally means 'the god'. It's like us calling YHWH "God", even though it is just the word for a singular European pagan deity. God is not called God, but we call Him God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 3:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 4:40 PM Modulous has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 58 of 300 (307979)
04-30-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by lfen
04-30-2006 4:08 PM


Re: Sorting it out
In contrast list specific differences. The revealed text of one claims that God chose the Jews, whilst the other claim God chose the Arabs, and so on.
If you choose make personal statements just make it clear they are your feelings as in: I totally believe in one and the other I totally disbelieve and despise.
What you are calling personal statements are not personal staements, not my opinion or feelings, they are facts about what the religions teach. These are teachings that objectively contradict one another. There is nothing subjective about any of it.
Here are some of my statements of it from the earlier thread, referring to the FACTS of what the different religions teach.
http://EvC Forum: Does God = Allah -->EvC Forum: Does God = Allah
God's having a Son is the whole of Christianity. You don't eliminate that "minor little feature" without eliminating the God Christians worship.
Isaac's being Abraham's heir versus Ishmael's being his heir is the entire claim of the Jews to be the Chosen People. You don't eliminate that "minor little feature" without completely eliminating God's plan of salvation through the Jews and falsifying the nature of God Himself.
http://EvC Forum: Does God = Allah -->EvC Forum: Does God = Allah
The contradictory written accounts of God amount to worshiping a different God. If one has a Son who is equally God with Himself but the other has no son, if one chose Isaac to father his chosen people and the other chose Ishmael, these are two entirely different Gods.
"What really happened" or what God is cannot be known apart from the written revelations of his character. If they contradict each other, they cannot all be true. We worship God as having the charater that is taught in these revelations, so if we are worshiping the false description we are worshiping a false God.
http://EvC Forum: Does God = Allah -->EvC Forum: Does God = Allah
The points I've focused on are God's appointing Isaac as Abraham's heir, which the Bible says and Judaism claims, versus Ishmael, which Islam claims, and Jesus being God incarnate versus being merely a prophet. These are crucial, central elements of the three religions, absolutely irreconcilably mutually contradictory. The Jews are the Chosen People because of Isaac. If the heir were Ishmael they would not be the Chosen People. Judaism doesn't exist without Isaac. Jehovah is not Jehovah unless Isaac is the heir. Likewise Christianity is not Christianity unless Jesus is God. In other words these particular pieces of dogma are intrinsic to the concept of God of each religion, crucial signposts in the map to God, leading to essentially three entirely different Gods.
http://EvC Forum: Does God = Allah -->EvC Forum: Does God = Allah
The different holy books present God as being or saying different things. God can't be or say all of those things without contradicting Himself. At least two of the holy books must be MISrepresenting HIM -- not just "the religion" but GOD HIMSELF. It certainly concerns His identity whether or not He chose the Jews or the Muslims, and all the more so whether or not He has a Son, who is equally God with Himself. It would be entirely different Gods who have different views on this point.
Is it a "trivial" thing whether God chose Isaac or Ishmael with whom to establish an EVERLASTING COVENANT??
Now this is off topic on this thread so let's get back to the moon god.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-30-2006 04:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Argusx43
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 300 (307980)
04-30-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ReverendDG
04-30-2006 3:54 PM


Re: Sorting it out
Http://www.bible.ca/...m-photos-moon-worship-archealolgy.htm
I give the link again. We see f.a. the Harran coin with a crescent moon and star. Long before Islam.
As I get it, 'Allah' is 'God' in Arab. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the symbols used by Islam. It's exactly the same symbols used for this moongod. Period.
You can maybe compare it with the pentagram, also used by early European christians, but actually a pagan symbol and used today by the occult.
And antoher thing , early Islam was very influenced by christians and Judaism, but today we see what Islam is , very untolerant. It's very hard to be a christian in a islamic culture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ReverendDG, posted 04-30-2006 3:54 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ReverendDG, posted 04-30-2006 7:51 PM Argusx43 has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 300 (307981)
04-30-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
04-30-2006 2:23 PM


Re: Sorting it out
you say
Faith writes:
The existence of earlier religions with similar names proves no intrinsic connection to the Biblical God.
Okay, I believe that you believe that.
Why would the existence of earlier religions with similar names prove an intrinsic connection to Allah?
Islam says "There is no GOD but Allah."
If there was an earlier Politheistic religion that used the term Allah what does that have to do with Islam?
Also this post of yours is just another string of assertions and accusations and insults. With a link in case anybody wants to wade through tons of stuff to see if there's anything to it. That's not the proper use of a link.
Actually, the links are to earlier messages in this thread, Message 18 and Message 27 so that folk can see that the issues that you bring up have been addressed, and addressed long, long ago.
But if you don't want me to link back to them I'll gladly repost the contents here. They are short, Message 18 is only 7 sentences or so, and Message 27 is only 6 sentences. Just let me know what you desire.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 2:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 4:47 PM jar has not replied

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