Does Allah = Moon God?

I haven't read Morey. I was unable to access the document. I think it's a PDF, and although I have all the requisite ware for reading PDF it's a pain on my machine.I've already proved Allah is not the same God, I really don't need Morey. Yes Allah is said to be the one and only God, same as Jehovah, but he contradicts Jehovah in many ways and therefore both simply cannot be the same God. One is a phony, imaginary.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-30-2006 07:13 PM

I thought I took that back. I was just playing in my last post. I have no idea what kind of case can be made but it doesn't matter to me because Allah and Jehovah have been shown to be utterly different Gods. All that you say they have in common is totally cancelled out by the mutual contradictions. They simply cannot be the same entity. One has to be a phony, a made-up idea.

I linked to a html file:
http://radiobergen.org/powergame/islam.htmlI thought you were accusing the Christians that decry Morey of character assasination? I don't see how declaring that you have proved something that is under debate is relevant to any of this. You said that the Christian articles that Paul linked to where were character assisinations and had no proof. I just showed you a tiny example of the proof that they have, in order to demonstrate that you were incorrect to label these Christians in a bad way (without any proof by the way).

I wasn't arguing that they were the same Gods, just that the Islamic God is a derivation of YHWH not a derivation of Sin.

No, they considered themselves the true Jews, just as Jesus taught, and Paul taught as well. And the vast majority of them continued to attend the synagogue worship and perform all the rituals and observe the Jewish holy days as well. Paul taught that there was no harm in this and to try to dissuade them would violate their consciences, but they were not to require it of the Gentiles. Even the Gentiles can call themselves "true Jews" -- adopted children of Yahweh and citizens of the "New Israel." What could be more truly Jewish than to follow the Jewish Messiah who was sent by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?The "new" religion was not new, it was a recovery of the true religion of the Old Testament which had been corrupted by the Talmudic tradition.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-30-2006 07:24 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 04-30-2006 07:24 PM

OK, but your academic point unfortunately engenders certain implications that have to be countered.

Just like Islam is the recovery of the true religion that was corrupted by judaism and christianity.This message has been edited by DrJones*, 04-30-2006 05:29 PM

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Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

It's in answer to those who keep insisting that Allah and Jehovah are the same God. They are not and that has been proved.It's not particularly relevant to this debate, it's mostly saying this debate doesn't affect what I already know so I'm not terribly interested in it except that the moon god certainly was a part of the origin of Islam, and you've conceded that so I'm happy.Now I'm just answering various other posts, but I can exit any time. No, I said what Paul QUOTED amounted to character assassination -- it was nothing but this person emoting about how bad a person this guy Morey is, without the slightest support -- and I was not incorrect at all to label his post that way. Perhaps I was wrong about Morey {ABE: But actually I made no claims about Morey, not having read him} -- and I don't know yet -- but I was not wrong about Paul's post.ABE: Sorry, made some substantive corrections. Please note.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-30-2006 07:32 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 04-30-2006 07:33 PM

Well, make up your mind. Did Christianity recover the truth or trash it?

once more into the fray. you really should research this claim a little better. because the FACT of the matter is that aspects and the name and titles of the biblical god exist as part of other cultures' polytheistic religions. we can find El in particular in quite a few cultures of the region as the cheif diety, and sometimes a wind god.why do christians deny El's origin as a wind god? that claim is about as valid as your claim regarding islam. we don't worship a wind god any more than they do a moon good.but look a little further, here. El, in ugarit, was Il, and he was head of a council of gods, the Ilohim. sound familiar? it should. do you really think "Elohim" didn't start out as a plural word, and became singular?maybe we should look for som polytheistic tendencies in the bible. we'll ignore that "we" in genesis 1-3, even though the plural of majesty hadn't been invented yet. let's look at this verse:

quote:

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Deu 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

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Deu 32:9 For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

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i've pointed this out before, i'm sure. god divided the sons of adam into nations in genesis 11, at babel. and he did it... according to the number of the children israel? when? there certainly weren't any at the time (israel hadn't been born yet). maybe the first generation? there's gotta be more than 12 nations. this really doesn't make any sense -- what do the children of israel have to do with the number of countries?check the footnotes.

quote:

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As in Dead Sea Scrolls, which read of the sons of God, and Greek version, which reads of the angels of god; Masoretic Text reads of the sons of Israel.

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(from the nlt, not my favourite translation)

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the dead sea scroll and the septuagint are older than the masoretic version. somebody changed something. now, let's think about the implications:one angel/son of god per nation, except for israel which belongs to Yahweh. kind of sounds a lot like patron gods, don't you think?

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Main Entry: heno·the·ism
Pronunciation: 'he-n&-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun

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: the worship of one god without denying the existence of other gods

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now, look at stories from genesis again. abraham doesn't deny the gods of people he's visiting -- and they don't deny his god. in fact, they seem to quite respect each other's religions. even when elijah is proving to israel on mount carmel that Yahweh is their god, and not Ba'al, he doesn't deny the existance of Ba'al. read closely:

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1Ki 18:36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

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this is why "Elohim" was preceded by god's name -- so you knew WHICH god they were talking about. not just any old god, YAHWEH god. even more curious is that god commands sacrifice to another spiritual entity, in the book of leviticus:

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Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for Azazel into the wilderness.

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and, of course, one of the most important points: abraham. abraham came from Ur, a place that was near the center of the akkadian/babylonian/sumerian empire. do you really suspect that abraham was NOT a polytheist living in the heart of babylon? do you think abram knew the lord as his only god before the covenant was made? before he was called out of ur? and do we not do the same? Yah/Yaw is certainly present in other cultures. in ugarit, he was the son of Il, a member of the Elohim. some have even suggested that the name bears a phonetic relation with the akkadian/sumerian god Ea. The are pronounced the same.

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Let me try this again.I thought what was "under debate" on this thread was the connection between Islam and the pagan moon god. You've conceded the connection. I consider that closed.Now the debate seems to have shifted to how supposedly Allah is the same as Jehovah. Well I proved thoroughly on the earlier thread that they contradict each other and are therefore NOT the same God, and anything having to do with the moon god does not affect this fact, but I will answer this claim again when it is asserted again. The similarities are generic. The specifics contradict one another, and this has been proved. WHAT PAUL POSTED is what I was objecting to, his way of presenting his argument, which was nothing but emotional statements with no substance and no support. I do not know if they were Christians or not and he did not provide me any way of knowing -- he quoted nothing believable, he just SAID that's what his source is. This is NOT acceptable debate form.

Neither, its all fairy tales. Your position that christianity recovered the truth from the jews is just as valid as the position that islam recovered the truth from the other two.This message has been edited by DrJones*, 04-30-2006 05:43 PM

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Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

FINDING SIMILARITIES IN OTHER CULTURES IS NOT PROOF OF A CONNECTION. How often does this have to be said. Who CARES if El described a wind god or any other god? It's a generic term that means "god" and was applied to EVERY kind of god.Proof of a connection in the case of Islam is KNOWLEDGE OF THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT in which the moon god had been the dominant god at Mecca worshipped just as Allah now is worshipped and was overthrown by Mohammed himself,I myself SAID on this very thread that Abraham worshipped pagan gods. Good grief.You are just playing with words and haven't proved anything.

Only to someone who doesn't care about actual facts.

and so? we use the fish symbol for jesus and it has earlier meanings from pagan origins - have a look here Alternative Religions
using something from another religion doesn't mean you believe the same as who came up with it
so the fact that they use the symbol doesn't mean much, when people have a fish symbol does that mean they worship venus? from what i understand so was the star of david if you live by a religious goverment where you can only worship the religions god, would you allow other people to worship a different god?
this is nothing new christianity as done and will do the samething if the country was run by the religion.
this is a red herring anyway, how is this relevent to this topic?