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Author Topic:   Origins of the Judeo-Christian god and religion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 244 of 282 (309729)
05-06-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 2:58 PM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
The power of this book is that it isn't aimed at proving a connection between paganism and Judeo-Christianity -- so you're sure the author isn't skewing things to fit that argument. Yet you'll read about flood and creation myths paralleling Noah and Adam, about pre-Christian ideas of the immortality of the soul and life after death, and about lots and lots of Gods who die and are reborn.
i find it highly ironic and amusing when a book sets out to prove its point, sticks to its guns, but accidently proves the other guy's point in the process to any reader with a brain. this only seems to happen in religious debates and apologistics -- when fact doesn't matter; only belief.
Just in case you misread something, which I think you did, this paragraph is not in Finegan's book, it's on the website, which is not a Christian website, in fact it's an ANTI-Christian website.
And by the way, I've been skimming the book, and it's clear from my marginal notes that it's not a fundie book to say the least.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2006 03:12 PM

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 Message 242 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 2:58 PM arachnophilia has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 246 of 282 (309732)
05-06-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 2:53 PM


Re: False Gods
and the earlier revelations, being told in terms the crude polytheists could understand, are less accurate then?
Hardly. How did you get that out of waht I said? It's ALL true.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 255 of 282 (309768)
05-06-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 3:22 PM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
but honestly, it does not sound like a pure academic work, it sounds like a book written to further an agenda.
What agenda? The one you're defending maybe. Or jar's. To judge by my marginal notes. Not my agenda. You jumped to a wrong conclusion about the book and the review of it too. Reread it. You missed the boat.

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 Message 248 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 3:22 PM arachnophilia has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 282 (309780)
05-06-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 5:16 PM


some of the gods but no Yah
By the way, Arach, since the various gods of the various cultures are listed in the index of this book, such as El, Enlil, Asherah or Ashtoreth, Mithra, Marduk, Zeus, Tammuz, Nabu, just to pick a few at random, I looked to see if a Yah or Yaw were also there. It's not. What's your source for this supposed god in the Egyptian (or some other?) pantheon again?
{abe: The more I read in the book the more it strikes me how my notes complain about it. Clearly it's a liberal production. But it's not short on scholarship, that's for sure, well researched, well documented.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2006 06:06 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 282 (309800)
05-06-2006 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 6:14 PM


Yamm
OK, here's what it says about Yamm, pages 140-141.
Finegan, Myth & Mystery writes:
The mythology concerning Baal is found in some eight large tablets and a number of fragments. Because of damage there are gaps in the narrative, and the sequence of events is not beyond question. Nevertheless three major episodes are recognizable: the conflict of Baal with the god Yamm (Sea); the building of a palace for Baal; and the conflict of Baal with the god Mot (Death).
In the first episode, Yamm, son of El, whose name, like the related word in Hebrew, means Sea* and who is called by the parallel titles 'Prince Sea' and 'Judge River,' demands of the assembly of the gods that Baal and his powers be delivered over to him, and El agrees that Baal shall be the servant of Yamm. Kotha wa-Khasis, however, the craftsman of the gods, whose name means something like 'skilful and clever,' provides Baal with two clubs and promises that Baal will be able to smite his enemy and take his own 'eternal kingdom' and 'everlasting dominion.' Thereupon Baal does battle with Yamm and is vicotrious. Henceforward Yamm is evidently confined to his proper realm, the seas, while Baal is indeed the lord of the earth. In other words the forces of chaos typified by the ocean have been brought under control and order established in the world.
The goddess Ashtoreth is mentioned in the account, but the text is so fragmentary that it is not possible to know what role she played. Although named frequently in Old Testament references to Canaanite religion, Ashtoreth appears only a few times in the Ugaritic texts, in contrast with the numerous appearances of Asherah, which gives some support to the theory that Ashtoreth and Asherah are one and the same.
On one hand, the victory of Baal over Yamm is reminiscent of th victory of Marduk over Tiamat as the unruly primeval ocean in Mesopotamian myth. On the other hand there is something of the same theme of the restriction of the might of the sea in biblical language: the Lord 'by his power . . . stilled the sea' (Job 26:12); he prescribed bounds for the sea, saying 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed (Job 38:10-11).'
*I looked up "sea" in the Concordance and it is indeed "yam" in the Hebrew.
That, by the way, is the only section of the book where Yamm is mentioned.
I see no connection whatever with Yahweh intended or implied.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2006 07:56 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 263 of 282 (309911)
05-07-2006 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 9:47 PM


Re: Yamm
Not seeing anything from your post that connects "Yamm" to "Yahweh." If an alternate for "Yamm" is "Yah" it would still mean "Sea" not "I AM" and "Hayah" in Hebrew is the root "to be" and "being" which is what "Yahweh" derives from. Nothing to do with seas and beaches.

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 Message 261 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 9:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 264 of 282 (309914)
05-07-2006 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 2:26 PM


Re: The revisionist pattern
I read Gilgamesh years ago. Your attitude is abusive at this point.
The book I referred to so obviously does NOT have an agenda jsut from the little I've told you about it and the website posted that made use of it, the dishonesty you are imputing to me is clearly yours. "Pagan" Is the scholarly term for all such religions. You are making a fool of yourself, but in present company probably nobody notices except me so you're safe.
would you trust someone to tell you all about the entire history of christianity and judaism in one chapter of one book written to explain why islam is superior?
Once again, your ignorance is hanging out. The book treats all the religions objectively, it doesn't say one word anywhere in it that suggests Christianity is superior (although since it IS superior I wouldn't hold that against it if it did). But it doesn't say any such thing, and as I've said over and over if it has an agenda at all it is the same agenda as this thread has, to reduce Christianity to all the other religions.
And yes, it is certainly possible to do an honest job of presenting the main features of any system of thought in a chapter. Its briefness says nothing against it.
I can't believe I'm having to argue this pathetic level of nonsense and take insults over it too.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-07-2006 02:38 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 282 (309917)
05-07-2006 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by mike the wiz
05-06-2006 3:17 PM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
And there's a fallacy involved in this, the implication that if it predates it, it therefore influenced it.
Good observation.
(post-hoc).(The name of the fallacy for readers)
Thank you.
And this fallacy is what this whole bunch of nonsense rests on, nothing more than that.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-07-2006 02:52 AM

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 Message 266 by RickJB, posted 05-07-2006 6:29 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 282 (309970)
05-07-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by RickJB
05-07-2006 6:29 AM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
And this fallacy is what this whole bunch of nonsense rests on, nothing more than that.
No. As far as I can see no-one has relied exclusively on a post-hoc relationship. As Arach has been constantly demonstrating, there is some linguistic and cultural evidence. This evidence is (at the very least) no less strong than that which you argued supported Allah's early incarnation as a moon god!
This is false. What I said was that there is historical evidence of Mohammed's actually really/personally/historically taking the existing pagan god and exhorting his followers to eliminate all others and worship this god as the eternal God. This is not the same kind of evidence as what others are putting up here. No direct hsitorical connection of any sort with the Biblical God has been made whatever. It's all post hoc reasoning. The linguistic and cultural "evidence" is only evidence if you accept the fallacy that what predated must influence. And the connection Arach has been trying to make with "Yam" is sheer nonsense.
I have no problem whatever with the linguistic and cultural facts as such. I expect the Biblical events to have occurred within a linguistic and cultural context. I expect to find similar terms. I even expect the terms to be used in order to communicate with people who have the dominant expectations concerning the various gods.
But I also know that the Bible is written for the express purpose of presenting to humanity the true Creator God who is above all those other gods {abe: has no connection whatever with any pagan god, no historical connection with the pagan gods of Abraham's family, etc}, and I believe this should be obvious to anyone who reads it on its own terms and in its own context instead of breaking it up into fragments.
And truly, your comments on my mental frame are out of order. Or shall I speculate in print about your inadequate mental frame, for certainly it is that.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-07-2006 12:23 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 271 of 282 (310178)
05-08-2006 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by RickJB
05-07-2006 1:04 PM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
deleted.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-08-2006 01:02 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by RickJB, posted 05-07-2006 1:04 PM RickJB has not replied

  
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